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boredtodeath · Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:00 pm

I meant to say that is why the doj has gone after citadel, neteller and optimal group(firepay).

Facilitating transfer of money for gambling transactions is illegal, miscoding check/debit card transactions and efts is illegal. a payment processing group of 7 people were recently arrested in utah. None of the gambling establisments have been charged only the people processing the payments. I have charges with click2pay that I am going to dispute they will have to provide proof of the charges. Problem is they coded the charges as general merchandise and clothing. I don't think they are going to be able to provide proof and come up with the merchant they processed the charge for, do you?

They will probably contact me and they will be flat out of luck, they have charged me for one transaction twice by taking it out of my available c2p balance and also debiting my bank account. I have sent my statements and they never reverse it. Now they have no phone number. I had them close my account.

I am adding all the money they owe me up and disputing that amount and the fees they have charged me for supposed returned items that never were presented to my bank due to problems on their end. Then they took away the withdrawal option so forced to redeposit funds at merchant which obviously had to play before you could withdraw so lost money doing that. They are crooks, they lock accounts when the problem was on their end. They stop withdrawals with no notice, take forever to answer emails and take away the toll free number. They are an illegal operation from a u.s. standpoint.

No bank would even be allowed to pay them what you owe because they would be breaking the law, by participating in funding of an illegal internet gambling transaction. A transaction which should not have been facilitated in the first place and would not have been authorized if the ewallet submitted the correct information. i.e. gambling versus general
merchandise

I did not know they were calling it general merchandise until the bank phoned me about one of their transactions. That is fraud on their part, big time. And they did it without my knowledge. I was never advised they were giving frandulent information to the bank.

lip · Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:49 am

hey man,

Dont waste your time disputing it. The collection company might cal you, but just have fun with them. Ignore them at first and if they continue to cal, just leave the phone off the hook and waste there time. then call the number back continuoulsy while blocking your call and waste more of there time. they are most likely paid on commission, so the more time of their time you waste, the more you can get back at them. Just a thought.

internet gambler · Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:16 am

It is the "Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act" which was signed by George Bush in October of 2006. It outlines the legality of internet gambling and the prohibition of financial institutions in processing payments used for online gaming. Basically all banks and creditors must come up with a system to stop these transactions or else they will be penalized by uncle sam. The US gave a 9 month window for banks to finally do their spring cleaning. I just disputed about 3 grand worth of transactions from wamu and in 3 days they gave it back to me no questions asked. its been already 2 months and i havent heard a word from them and i already know why. click2pay issues? my johnson
wants to laugh.

newarcher · Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:51 am

Screw them, they can't enforce a debt in a State where their activity is illegal.

Change your checking accounts, change your phone number to an unlisted one, and be done with them. Also, get some professional help. See if you can't turn that gambling addiction into a sexual addiction so that at least you will be having fun.

New

tmac · Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:08 am

i have owed other processers like neteller for about 5 years and dont care about those. I have paid some in the past and some i havent. I have 2 right now one for 19 k with jmc. The funny thing is it was only 6300 at the sportsbook. I have another with Click2pay with jmc for 1000. I am sending in a letter disputing it tommorow. Anyone done this yet and recieved anything back? They dont have my number just my address.

Mjedd · Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:58 pm

Collection of internet gambling debts is a very gray area of the law. Some states had laws in place while others had attorney generals take positions that internet gambling was illegal prior to passage of the UIGEA. If you reside in one of these states and you have a debt collector after you for past internet gambling debts, not only do you have a basis to contest the debt, you also may have a cause of action against the collection agency under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act for illegal debt collection activities. The fdcpa allows recovery of $1000 per violation, actual damages, attorney fees as well as a provision for class actions which can allow a punitive damage recovery up to $500,000. There's even an argument to be made that such activities implicate a civil RICO statute concerning collection of unlawful debts which would allow residents of states that don't have laws in place prohibiting internet gambling to file claims under the FDCPA. I'm aware of a law firm in St. Louis looking into filing a class action lawsuit against one or more debt collection agencies based on this fact scenario.

Guest · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:05 pm

What gambling site is still collecting? I haven't paid since Nov 2005 and have great credit. Got a letter a few months ago from collection agency, responded with dispute and request for proof. Never heard from them again. No bank or credit problems at all.

Mjedd · Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:57 am

Bodog has a collection agency currently pursuing these matters with fairly aggressive tactics. However, it's the debt collector not Bodog who may be subject to liability.

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:43 pm

Two Questions.

First, if a credit card was used to fund a neteller account prior to the 2006 bill signing is it still legal for the credit card to attempt collection on a past due amount? For example lets say $5,000 was transferred from a Bank of America Visa card to neteller and then from neteller to a gambling site. Does Bank of America have authority to collect on that debt?

Second, if a credit card was used for a cash advance into a checking account and then that money was used to fund neteller would it be legal for the credit card company to collect on the debt?

Guest · Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:01 pm

I think those are different situations and can be distinguished from a debt collection agency trying to collect money that went directly to an online gaming site from a credit card or checking account.

It's my understanding that when funds are transferred from a credit/debit card to neteller, those funds can be used for an infinite number of online purchases (legal or otherwise) and are not limited for use at an online gambling site. In that case, the credit card company has no idea what the funds are being used for. Courts have found that this is a simple contract having nothing whatever to do with gambling.

However, with internet gambling sites, there is no intermediate step involved in providing cash to the gambler, who is then free to rethink the decision to wager. The only conceivable purpose for logging onto an online gambling site and entering credit card information is to fund bets directly. The mechanism of the site effectively restricts the gambler to such a purpose and activity. With your scenario of an intermediate electronic account allowing a wide array of purchases, the nexus between the credit card debt and the gambling activity diminishes.

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:36 am

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:23 am

I think Guest brings up a good point. I would think that when an intermediate account is used, that account could collect on the debt, wether used for gambling or whatever.

But i also don't think it's right to use an intermediary and then not pay them. Regardless of what it was used for, could that company then come back and say if you won a ton of money sorry, gambling is illegal, so we are keeping your winnings? You spent the money. I know it sucks, gambling is an addiction, all that, but it's still your responsibility, and I think it's part of the recovery process to realize your responsibility and be accountable for your own actions.

Mjedd · Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:13 am

I tend to agree that the intermediaries should be able to collect on their accounts since it's not a direct pipeline to an online wagering site. In the situation where the collection agency is assigned or purchases the debt directly from the gaming site and trys to collect it, that's where the consumer can fight it. First send a debt validation letter and set up the collection agency for potential violations of the FCPA. Sure there's the argument about whether it's right or wrong to welch out on a debt, but collection agencies are ruthless and should get stung under the fdcpa if they're out of line. Here's what the law says:

FDCPA Section 809. Validation of debts [15 USC 1692g]
(b) If the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within the thirty-day period described in subsection (a) that the debt, or any portion thereof, is disputed, or that the consumer requests the name and address of the original creditor, the debt collector shall cease collection of the debt, or any disputed portion thereof, until the debt collector obtains verification of the debt or any copy of a judgment, or the name and address of the original creditor, and a copy of such verification or judgment, or name and address of the original creditor, is mailed to the consumer by the debt collector.

I would be very interested to see how the JMCs of the world respond to this when they're going after debts for online gaming sites. One mis-step and they could end up buying a class action lawsuit.

gocolts · Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:14 am

The point was brought up that direct "purchases" on gambling sites cannot be disguised as anything but for gambling. The problem is that these gambling sites have not been honest with the credit card banks. The sites did not code the transactions as gambling, so the banks can easily say they were not aware what the transactions were for. None of the merchants listed on my credit card statements has anything to do with gambling. So, I think it would be very difficult to get out of old credit card gambling charges.

ABUSED BUT NOT USED · Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:08 am

hi internet gamblers--just wanted to fill you in on my situation with click2pay fraud--disputed with my bank a total of $1200 in unauthorized transactions with click2pay (who by the way never made any attempt to contact me to validate transactions)--approx one month later an abusive screaming employee of Joseph Mann and Creed named Martha called me regarding$1800 on my cell phone (and I have witnesses to conversation-she never once informed of right to dispute--instead screamed that quote "you need to take better care of your children" and "quote
"if your child had won $4ooo--you wouldn't be complaining if my client deposited that $ into your account--) supposedly I owe $1800 to some company named "ve payments"--I have reported Joseph Mann and Creed to FTC and ATtorney general (Already made fraud reports on initial charges) Martha told me quote have her on speaker phone--that no validation was needed since vepayments--click2pay assumed that my identity was not being compromised--the lesson here is that even if you don't validate transactions for internet gambling--companies like Click2pay will simply turn you into collections because they didn't do their validations--I am happy to inform that I have reported from the very get-go--to all reporting agencies--fraud reporting Click2pay--Joseph Mann and Creed--and this so called "VEpayments"--these people from Joseph Mann and Creed in my opinion--are absolute vultures--who have lied to me ever since the first contact that they have made-they THINK THEY CAN SCARE YOU INTO PAYING--(MARTHA TOLD ME QUOTE-"-YOUR NEXT STEP WILL BE PROSECUTION"-the FTC has sent me a package and has advised me to sue them to receive compensation--WHY? Evidently-this company thinks that for some reason they can break the laws and continue to bully the outcome--even tho my repeated attempts at a debt validation letter have absolutely gone unanswered--I just got approved online for a new credit card with $2000 limit--wow--I filed fraud complaint over 2 months ago--imagine that--am amazed at how a company like Joseph Mann and Cred thinks they can just keep doing whatever they want to do--total abusive A-HOLES as far as my dealing with them--I am a church going christian-I know that this is not what will determine judgement on jOSEPH MANN AND CREED BEHAVIOUR--BUT PLEASE IF YOU HAVE READ THIS TO THIS POINT--PROTEST THEIR UNETHICAL BEHAVIOUR!!~!!!!!

abused but not used · Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:33 am

I just wanted to say that I am sorry about the angry comments I made a couple of days ago--I myself have never dealt with a collection agency before and felt so EXTREMELY VIOLATED with the way I was treated (and have continued to have been treated from this company)-I Googled "click2pay complaints" and ended up here-and I firmly believe that it was necessary to speak out against the abusive behaviour that jmc employees obviousely think they can get away with--I was just so ANGRY that this company thinks they can treat people in the manner that I have been treated and have violated fdcpa laws with every recorded conversation---and I was thinking--"Oh my goodness! What happens when people have actually made the on-line transactions?--how in the world could they have been treated any worsely or deceptively than I have? In my anger I ASKED TO PLEASE PROTEST THEIR BEHAVIOUR--what I am trying to get across--is that if you feel you have been abused by a collection agency--please understand that they treat EVERYONE in the same manner regardless of whether or not you actually owe the debt--they will try to SCARE you and shame you into paying or insist that they have the control to mess up your credit rating--someone from this company called and screamed at me that I was essentially a BAD PARENT--(I spent over 6 years under a counseling psychiatrist because my oldest son was molested by a 12 year old child when my son was 5 years old-(my eldest is now 20)-how many years do you think it would take you get over BLAMING yourself?? And how many MINUTES do you think it would take for an ABUSIVE debt collector SCREAMING that you are a bad parent to bring that all back??! Okay so that is what happened to me when I DIDN'T make these transactions--my point is how are they treating people who actually did? I only have to assume that it is not right--if anyone is attempting to collect a debt with abusive tactics--I don't care if it's JMC the only collection company I have ever dealt with--don't be afraid!!!!! If they say they will prosecute regarding on line gambling transaction --I think you you will win!! My opinion God Bless you all!!! And I wish you the best of luck!!!

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