Bad Advice

Ok, here we go....

I don't know who is advising anyone NOT to pay their bills. I don't, and I know the majority of the moderators here don't do that, either.

What we WILL do, however, is advise a consumer to obtain validation of their debt prior to paying it. This is not debt avoidance, nor is it a stall tactic. It's simply a good idea. Even in this day of technological advances, mistakes are made, and a consumer being pursued by a debt collector may not be the one who actually owes the debt. Also, the technological advances we have made have made it easier for the crooks out there to steal our identities. Therefore, debt validation is simply a good idea.

If you take time to look at many of the posts titled "will I get sued", or "can they take me to court", or "can they garnish my wages" - you will find that we DO advise people of what can happen to them if a creditor sues them for default. They CAN be taken to court and their wages CAN be garnished. We all know that, and we advise newcomers to the site of that very fact. I'm not sure where you're seeing otherwise.

We do give solid advice, based on the laws of each consumer's state. A C&D Letter is only advised when a collection agency is harrassing a consumer. And we never tell a consumer that sending a C&D Letter will prevent them from having to pay a debt.

I'm not sure how long you've been reading our board, but I don't think it's been long, or you would have seen the good advice we provide. If we weren't providing solid advice that helps people get out of debt - by legal means - then we wouldn't still be here, still be growing in number of members, and the site would simply cease to exist. And you definitely wouldn't see people coming back to post things like "thank you! I'm so grateful I found this site!"

I've been told to pay off debt from this forum. Otherwise see for myself how a 4,000 debt can suddenly be 9,400 and now 12,500 in a year and a half! It didn't make sense to me "before" i even found this site and it still doesn't! Reminds me of loan sharks!
Hey! That might have been a better idea, to go to a loan shark than deal with this! Probably wouldn't have such an inflated debt!
I've ALWAYS wanted to pay my debt back, what i rightfully owe, this is!
So, I guess we ALL read things differently cuz i've NEVER EVER seen someone say, DO NOT PAY UR BILLS! (kinda wish there WAS a way! but don't we all?)
Ang

I'm not sure where people get the idea that everyone is saying "don't pay your bills" far from it. Only that everything is in order first. I know from experience if you don't validate you can get burned. I paid off one debt twice to two companies! I didn't realize it until afterwards, but I didn't know any better and I was in such a hurry to try and pay my debts I didn't keep good track of them. If I had found this site earlier I wouldn't have made that mistake. So yeah people need to know the debt is legit first.

It's very interesting to me that most of the collectors who post on the boards all say we tell people not to pay their bills. How does asking for debt validation, which is a right under the fdcpa, mean not paying your bills? If the debt is yours, then you have an obligation to pay it.
And as can be seen from many of the posts here, not every debt collectors call on are legitamately owed by the person on the other end of the phone. The burden of proof is on the collector.
If the debtor does indeed owe the debt, then they have to work with the collector to make payment arrangements that both can live with.
What does not need to happen is the harassment that many of our members live with on a daily basis--especially those of us who are dealing with PDL's. I am much more willing to work with a collector who is professional on the phone and not lying, saying that I will be arrested, my children will be taken away and calling my boss to say I am quitting--all things that have happened to the members on the boards. That is uncalled for.

WEll KS I suspect thats because the more people who become educated about their RIGHTS, the less money collectors make. I mean honestly, until i came here, if a collector called, I just paid it off. It never dawned on me that hey, this may not be my bill!

I had a situation where 2 DIFFERENT CA's were attempting to collect on the SAME debt. What did I do? I paid the original creditor. If I had not known my rights, I would've paid the same debt TWICE to two different CA's. And nobody tells people on the forum not to pay their debts.

Scratch that, with the exception of Bass and Associates.

And what's really fascinating to me is that the only people who ever say that about us are collectors! It must be because they are threatened that we are educating people about their rights, and never have said just blow the debt off if it's really owed.

I agree with what has been said in the responses to the old school collector. I don't encourage not to pay their bills. Although, it seems that we get accused of that from time to time. This is simply not true. We do encourage people to validate said debt if going through a collection agency. Like it's been said, it is their right under the fdcpa. I do encourage people to send a cease and desist if they are being constantly harassed by a certain debt collector. I have made arrangments with the orginal creditors and just paid off two. I'm not going to deal with someone who is going to threaten me on the first call with arrest, fraud, etc. That is against the law and a collector should know better. Unfortunately, too many people fall victim to this kind of tactic. I know there are good collectors out because I have dealt with them. I've been able to make payment arrangements with them with no trouble. I guess you could say it's a two way street but don't accuse us of something that we are not doing.

Old school debt collector i think you are confused
And you dont know the difference of the bad and
Good here.
Please read this in the washington post and if my
English is not good please give me a break...
debt consolidation care forum members are wonderful
People and give me a break again!!!
(Http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thecheckout/2006/07/debt_collectors_the_good_the_b.html)

debt consolidation care members always tell people to
Pay their bills and you have not a right mister old
School to came here and harassed my guardian angels
And the guardian angels of many people in this forum.
Please mister old school give me a break!!!

I am going to say it.

Do not pay any Junk Debt Buyer a huge amount for a small charged off balance, they bought for pennies on the dollar. They rip you off by adding extreme fees and interest.

You're very right about that oldschoolcollector. junk debt is nothing but extortion. I disagree with some of your original post though. Indeed I would advise not to pay unsecured debt before putting rent, food, mortgage payments, etc. first. Persons in this situation might already have "bad credit" and non-payment wouldn't matter much. Not all states allow for garnishment, etc. and in some states there's little a creditor can do even with a judgment. I'm not out to immediately go after a collector for the odd violation, but there are many well known companies who routinely and knowingly violate the law, and I would advise to go after them to the fullest extent. Consumers have rights, and do not have to deal with lying, extortion, fraud, and various other criminal acts, whether the consumer has bills or not. I understand your post, but sometimes, bad times fall on good people. Thanks for posting here.

wow, what is it with you collectors? Do you travel in packs or something? Each time we have one joker show up in here spouting off bad information and dishonesty, along comes another one....

Look, I am all for people paying their bills, but lets you and me get one thing straight right now, so there will be no confusion about it later--

IF YOU, AS A COLLECTOR, BREAK THE LAW WHILE CALLING ME, YOU WILL BE HELD LIABLE IN COURT FOR THE MAXIMUM POSSIBLE AMOUNT.

Now, since you collectors seem to think that the fdcpa is a professional sports association or something, perhaps you should get an education about your chosen industry before going any further. If I owe a $500 debt, and you commit 20 different violations of the FDCPA trying to collect it, I WILL be taking your back side to court, and I WILL win. And when I do, YOU will be footing the bill for that $500 debt yourself....and the remainder of the money you are ordered to pay will be sent to me. Is it really worth you people constantly ignoring the law? Try me....and find out for yourself. Out of everyone here, I am probably the single last person you had better hope to come across in your work. Because I know the law where far too many of your contemporaries do not. And that law works for me. I have had more than one debt on my credit files that was not mine...and believe me, I know how to handle that. So go ahead, call away. In the short time I have been here, I have seen collectors come and go from this place. One of the latest ones was a guy that claimed he could legally call my house all day long if he felt like it....who cares that the federal law says otherwise, right?

Bottom line----it used to be that consumers had to watch out for you collectors....now, that has changed. Now, YOU had better be the one on your game. YOU had better be the educated one. YOU had better make sure you know the law and follow it. Because I dont care--if it really is my debt or not, if it is a big debt or not, I dont care. I will only deal with people who have a clue and dont think that they have the right to screw with people just because they are working for XYZ collections. It's your turn to have to watch how you handle yourself....because we aint puttin up with the crap anymore. The phone calls are being recorded. The letters are being sent. Records are being kept. And it WILL bite you in the a$$...count on it.

With all that said, if you are among the minority in collections(that means if you are honest and actually interested in helping people the legal way), then by all means, you are welcome here. But if you are just going to skip around the truth, avoid the questions, and lie about the law, then please just head on back the way you came, as we already have too many like that in here. I am not looking for a war, but if trouble wants me, thats cool too.

Old School:

The problem with giving good advice about the consequences of not paying a debt is that the consequences vary by state. For example, if you told someone in Texas that you could garnish their wages or put a lien on their home, you would be violating state law, and your violations would be criminal as well.

The next piece of advice would be to bring a claim against the collector and his/her employer. Then, if the debt did not get forgiven, use the money obtained to pay off the debt. You see, this is not telling anyone not to pay a debt. This is advising people of their legal right to use the laws meant to protect them against illegal debt 1.

You will find many other ways in which people are educated about their legal rights in this forum. Based on my experience and what many collectors post, it is my opinion that most debt collectors are afraid of people being educated about those rights.

I read this board and ask legit questions in regard to the advice that is being given here.

Let's look at facts collectors are hardworking people trying to support themselves and there loved ones. Why the threats why the hostility?

What you and the moderators on this board are doing is creating a victim mindset for people who are already jammed up.Instead of giving excuses and angles to not pay why not use this board to convey a message of hope and getting out of the situation.

Serioulsy some of you may be well meaning but your lack of understanding of the law, of the collection industry and your penchant for telling people to take the easy way out is hurting more people than it helps.

You telling people with screwed up credit to go after the messanger is short term thinking and short sighted.

The people are victims when they come to me. Victims of illegal debt collection tactics. It is my duty to inform them of their rights. Not keep them in the dark so they can be so scared that they can't sleep at night because of the illegal threats. I think you are just upset because education takes away one of the most productive tools of many collection agents, illegal harassment.

As far as understanding the law, I don't have to defend myself. However I can tell you many people on this forum know the law better than many of the lawyers who defend the suits I file. It is not knowledge of the law, but ignorance of it that causes litigation.

Short term thinking is not what I do. Of course I have short term goals for my clients, like making their phone quit ringing off the hook, or stopping the harassing calls to their employer... Maybe even helping them get some peace in their home so their children can do their homework instead of listening to their parents fight after a bill collector calls and threatens to have them arrested.

However using the threat of bad credit is very short term, 7 YEARS!

Well said as always, Texaslawyer, and I would add to your fine post only one point: we are taking away the ignorance AND we are taking away another prime weapon rogue debt collectors routinely use: fear. And without these weapons in their bag of tricks, most collectors have nothing to work with, right? And Old School Collector asked us why the threats, why the hostility? I would say that we could ask the same of him--turnabout is fair play.
If a collector wants to call me, act professionally and work with me to get a payment arrangement we both can live with, great! I will not tolerate having my home invaded by threats and abuse any longer.

I'll throw mt two cents in.I never advise anyone to not pay or avoid debts.I inform everyone of their rights when they are in collections.You can look at my signature and see it contains links for the laws regulating creditors & collectors.

Old School Collector, I challenge you to point out a post where anyone has been advised by a moderator not to pay a legitimate debt.

I don't think I have once seen anyone told not to pay a debt that they actually owe, even with the payday loans. People have been told that even if these places are illegal in your state, you should still pay back at least the principal. What I have seen is people being told they do not have to take the abuse and threats a lot of collectors give. I have also seen where people have said they are not sure what debt someone is collecting on and are told to ask for a validation to make sure it is their debt. Sometimes people forget what they owe and to who over time, due to life happening. People have been explained their options on how to pay their debt. You asked why the threats and hostility toward collectors, the same could be asked, why the threats and hostility and abuse toward a debtor? Like I said, life happens....circumstances change....people loose their jobs, injury or death happens, medical problems arise, etc and yet when these things do, not many want to work with someone to help them out. It seems, any more, no once cares to help but are just out for the all mighty buck. If all a person can pay is $10 to $15 a month, at least they are making an effort to pay, but collectors don't want that, well at least the ones I know I have dealt with, no they want more. If a person has say 5 account and are paying $15 per account, that is $75 per month and that might even be stretching things a bit for them, but at least they are making an effort. Would it not be better having say 50 people paying $15 per month than 10 people paying $75. That is 40 more accounts being paid on. I know those are low numbers, but I was trying to make a point. Sometimes people need to start out with smaller payments and work their way up from there, as their circumstances improve.

So...I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe not all collectors are bad, but the ones that are give them all a bad name. Read through the threads a little more and you might be surprised.

2n is right: all collectors are not bad--but most collectors I have seen do not share the same opinion of debtors. It seems to me that most collectors go with the assumption that the person they are calling owes the debt legitimately (even if they don't), and are just deadbeats who don't want to pay it--let alone pay for basic needs like rent and food on the table.
Like I have said before, it is on the creditor to validate the debt when asked and prove that the person really owes it--not the other way around. If the creditor and the debtor can arrive at payment arrangements that work for both, that's wonderful. But insulting a debtor, casting doubts on their parenting skills, threatening them with arrest and harassing them at work, which could cause them to lose their jobs and their one source of money to pay bills, INCLUDING the creditor's, I might add, crosses the line and is unacceptable. And as we know, all of these things have happened to members of our community.
If a collector is professional and acts ethically on the phone, all of us here will work with them to get the debt paid off, I can promise that.

Exactly, ks. No one likes being treated like crap and put down and threatened. Sometimes things happen that are beyond our control. Also, if a collector wants and account paid, be reasonable with the debtor and work with them. Understand that they may not always have what you are asking for when it comes to payment, so work with them to at least get the bill paid. In the long run, you may make more by getting more people to pay on their bills, even if it is small amounts that not getting anything be demanding large payments from people who are already struggling, and not getting anything at all. The old saying goes you can catch more flys with honey than you can with vinigar.

Amen, 2n! You CAN catch more flies with honey than vinegar! Also to put myself in the debtor's shoes, I would be quicker to pay a debt off with a collector who is working with me to get it paid than one who is being a complete jerk. The nice collector is harder to blow off in my mind than the jerk!

Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power. Collections practices are basde on ignorances (or presumed ignorance of the borrower... knowledge of the debtor interferes with those practices.. hence the diametric opposition between debt collectors and a consumer education community such as this.

Feel the power, fight the ignorance

I think many of the collectors fail to realize that everyone has rights, even those who owe money. Even criminals have rights, the right to an attorney, the right to see the evidence against you, etc. Gee I guess those Duke kids should have just plead guilty and went to jail, after all there was a "victim", "evidence" and a DA accusing them so they must have been guilty. They already have a criminal charge on their record now so they might as well plead guilty, right? Why risk a legal battle.

Just as a DA has to prove someone guilty of a crime, it is the creditor and collectors who must prove the debt is valid and that there are no excessive fees.

And in the Duke case, I heard that the attorney who is pursuing it is now facing ethics charges himself! So I guess everyone's day comes sooner rather than later....

HE sure is! I watched it all day on Fox news

I think Oldschoolcollector has overlooked many posts. To my knowledge, no one, and I mean NO ONE here who holds the moderator title has ever told anyone "don't pay that bill" when the bill was legitimately owed.

I will reiterate what I, and many others on this thread, have said. We don't advise consumers not to pay their bills here. We never have, and we never will. When someone has come here asking for ways to get out of legitimately owed debt, we have told them they need to pay it. We advise debt validation. We advise those who have become involved with an illegal payday lender to pay the principal and interest allowed by their state, but no more. If we were advising people not to pay bills, those would definitely be the one we would tell them not to pay - because they're not operating legally anyway. But we take the moral high road on that one, and tell them to at least pay back what they borrowed, and the allowed interest.

I have yet to see Oldschoolcollector prove his/her point, that we tell people not to pay their bills and create a victim atmosphere on this site.

I have not seen them prove their point either. The last post they made they talked about being hard working people trying to suuport their family and loved ones...well that is what most of us are trying to do, but sometimes things happen and we fall behind, but there are things that have to be taken care of first, food, shelter, utilities, etc....to me that is providing for my family, not paying every single dime I have to a bill collector, which is, in my experience they want and the heck with everything else. SA few years ago I was told that they didn't care what I had left over that I needed to pay them first and if I could not afford to pay them then I just needed to sell everything in my house to pay them. After that call was when I decided to file bankruptcy. Taking care of my family is my main priority as is these collectors, so coming on here and telling me that they are hard working people trying to take care of their family, well, frankly, they way I see it, if you don't care about me taking care of my family, why should I care about you taking care of yours. I am not saying this to be mean or anything like that, but that is the way most collectors act, not all, but most. If you call me, you treat me with respect and like a person, not some piece of trash and like I am worthless because you are no better than me. Now if I get someone who is understanding and willing to work with me, I am more apt to make arrangments, ones that I can afford, and pay something. What this person does not seem to grasp is that most people are wanting to pay their bills and get out of debt, but these same people have to live also.

Well, I am done ranting now. Like I said before, but been a real bad day and have been in a really bad mood, so if my post sounds witchy, that really isn't how I am meaning it to sound. I just want this person to understand that they cannot come on here and be one way and then expect everyone to be sympathetic to the fact tha they are trying to take care of their family, when that is exactly what everyone here is trying to do.

Hope everyone has a good evening. I am gone for the day!

Texaslawyer,

You made good points about the variances in state laws. That is something any collector has to keep in mind.

Well said texaslawyer. The fdcpa and state collection laws were put into place for a reason.

I doubt we will see the original poster again. One idiot shows ups and gets soundly put in his place, but there are many more idiots just around the corner.

yeah, agreed. I still am waiting for the last genius--"checkbook"....the one that had to make up things and act like I was saying them, just to have a reason to whine.....he disappeared as well.

Yeah, he couldn't take looking in the mirror! Seems like OSDI isn't the perfect company he makes it to be, lol...

He also stated his company does not buy debt which in fact it does and it is a major part of their business.

So either he's really ignorant, or a really big liar???

Both? Or maybe just misguided to be nice ;)

That's a diplomatic way of putting it, Ram!! :D

I think its just the people on this board. We KNOW our rights and are NOT afraid to defend them firmly and clearly. We can also detect BS very quickly and will agressively hold a mirror up to a collector who desperately needs it.

They interpret this as attacks, tantrums, disrespect, and attempting to dodge debts. And they dont like it one little bit :)

There are threads through out your forum were people are advised not to pay example one from debt cruncher.

"You need to take care of yourself first before you take care of scumbag collectors!".

Debt Cruncher give an irrational emotinal response to the persons problem. How is the debtr taking care of themselves by risking possible wage garnishment or judgements by taking debt crunchers advise?

Example number two from a Craig Lee were several moderators jump in and piggy back on the idea. All this does is inflame and already tense situation and force the agencies hand in terms of taking legal action.

Ok if you have a phone with a intercom button this works great but you can still do it without one...Ok....
1. If the caller calls and asks for you. Say please hold. Push the Intercom button..
2. Now the tone has changed and they can notice the change in speaking...Tell them they are being recorded for Better Business B. Or Federal Commissions Dept and ask them to state their Name and Business in Calling...
3. They usually hang up they do not want to be recorded...


These are just a few examples the fact is the mods on this board are shills for ambulance chasing lawyers and credit counslers who have no desire to help you get right but just want to feed off your problems.

Think about the contridictions in one thread they say know your right to fight the collector and every collector settles, than they say use there credit counsler who can get you a better settlement and fight the collector for you. Which one is it why do you need to pay a counsler?

Also what they dont tell you is that Ameridebt and there ilk are under government investigation and are some of the biggest crooks out there. They take your money and dont fix your credit.

I have been in the industry a long time you want to get right dont listen to these know it alls, pull your credit report pay off outstanding debt to get your scores up, refiance to clear up your credit, do what you got to do but dont pay some jerkoff 500 dollars a month to try and get you payments that dont even cover the intrest on your outstanding credit cards.

Wow, I didn't know I was working for an ambulance chaser! In that case, I'm underpaid, lol!! OK, how is taking care of yourself by taking care of basic needs such as rent, food, lights, etc., irrational?? If I don't have shelter, chances are I can't have a job Mr. Old School and if that's the case, then I can't pay you, right? I mean, noone's getting paid at that point if I'm trying to stay out of the homeless shelter! Think about it. Not a hard concept...
And second, we never on this board tell someone to not pay a debt they have validated and owe--and I challenge you to show us where we have done this.
What we do do is educate members of the boards of their rights that we all enjoy under federal law and show people why they don't have to be harassed by old school collectors. Do they have to pay their just debts? You bet--but they don't have to be subjected to comments on their morals, their parenting skills or threatened with arrest--which you and I know happens all the time in the industry.
Your job is collecting money, not being a standin for Judge Judy or Dr. Phil--and I suggest that you and other old schoolers stick to the basics!

[quote]There are threads through out your forum were people are advised not to pay example one from debt cruncher.

"You need to take care of yourself first before you take care of scumbag collectors!".

Debt Cruncher give an irrational emotinal response to the persons problem. How is the debtr taking care of themselves by risking possible wage garnishment or judgements by taking debt crunchers advise? [/quote]

You cant really be this ignorant....can you??


Please take note of the difference in these two statements:

1--DO NOT PAY THE DEBT AT ALL
2--take care of yourself BEFORE YOU PAY A COLLECTOR

Now, when you grow up enough and learn enough honesty to admit the difference between your claim and the actual "proof" you posted, give us a call. Until then, take your dishonesty back to the credit chop shop you call an employer. Oh, and tell them something from me--tell them to get off their back side and stop trying to avoid their financial responsibilities in bankruptcy.... :wink:

Quote:

"You need to take care of yourself first before you take care of scumbag collectors!".

Out of all the tens of thousands of posts in all the thousands of threads - that was the best and only quote you could find???

:lol:

Good points by kornell and skydiver. Also most of the points you bring up has to do with the site itself and those who run it. The advice that most people give here is sound and people are informed of their rights. How is telling someone their rights bad advice? You don't like it because you can no longer intimidate people into paying you without question and overcharging them in the process.

I've also seen you collectors talk like its so easy for people to refinance or get loans to consolidate their debt. First of all not everyone owns a house so its not about refinancing your home. Second if you do own a house and your having trouble financially and with debt more than likely your credit is already shot and you will not be able to refinance your house or even your car. Same goes for a debt consolidation loan. And taking out a loan to pay another loan can be a bad idea and make it worse.

Many people are in bad shape already, their credit score is very bad and they come here for advice. Some people may not have jobs or have gotten laid off or fired for some reason and now have a much lower paying job. They will not be able to get any type of refinancing or credit whatsoever. So they must pay their essentials first and paying a debt collector is not essential at this point in their life. It takes time to pay off debt and rebuild your credit. As the old saying goes, you can't get blood from a turnip. This is why every debtor is not sued, first there is the risk they may not get a judgment, second even with a judgment the creditor can still only get a certain amount from the debtor depending on their financial situation. Even then the debtor still may not pay.

That is why collectors try and intimidate and harass, to scare people into giving them money. This site tells people what their rights are and to not be afraid. Businesses also go through financial problems, not paying their creditors and filing bankruptcy. However they generally have attorneys working for them so they are not harassed like the individual is and the business knows their financial rights. Individual many times do not and the collectors know this and that is why they harass and try to intimidate them. This site lets people know their rights and it burns the collectors up knowing this site is doing that. Collectors just need to worry about following the fdcpa and let the consumer worry about how he handles his finances and what debts he chooses to pay first.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that many people here are coming here because of payday loans. Most if not all of these PDL companies are predatory in their nature and they charge fees and interest rates that are so high they are illegal in just about every state. Some do not even have a license to do business in the states they give loans to people. So many here are not to sympathectic towards these kind of loans or the collectors who collect on them. The majority of people have already paid for the loan and the interest allowed by the state they live in, so in those cases I would tell the people not to pay the rest to the collector since they are trying to collect on an a contract that does not follow the state laws. That is why they will not sue because they know they will not win in court because of their illegal activies. So they get these abusive CA's to try and collect. In that case I have no problem in telling someone not to pay.

People need to pay their just, legal debts, not be continually harassed, as they are with PDL's. You can see many instances here of people who did pay off their PDL's and then were called again by a collector. This is the harassment I am talking about that needs to stop--and yes, I will tell members not to put up with that.

With credit card companies incomes at an all time high at almost 100 billion dollars on interest and another 50 billion dollars for fees and legal interest rates pushing 30% and you wonder why the moderators on this board try to help people settle their debts. Credit Card companies???????? profits in 2006 were nearly 40 billion which is over four times the profits of the oil industries. I have absolutely zero sympathy for credit lending agencies and especially predatory collection agencies. I especially have no sympathy for paid day loans and cash advance places. They are the lowest of the low and I will celebrate the day that we pass laws that make it illegal to loan money on pay checks as a cash advance.

Amen DOLLARSandSINCE! :D

Is it me or does old school collector sound like our friend Pay?