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Loophole in the PDL snowball effect?

Date: Tue, 08/12/2008 - 15:48

Submitted by firstwizard
on Tue, 08/12/2008 - 15:48

Posts: 22 Credits: [Donate]

Total Replies: 50


I've started two other threads on this site: "Online PDLs" and "Need PDL advice in WI" but the responses seemed to have hit a lull. That is OK with me, I know everyone has their hands full with all the PDL chaos going on. I've only been dealing with this for ~2 weeks after my wife and I decided to give our marriage another try. I fully understand what everyone here is going through. All the researching I've done trying to formulate a plan has kept me up way too late at night for me to function 100% at work. (See the other two threads for her PDL specifics).

I am not trying to get out of paying back the principle amount that she owes. I believe she has actually paid more than the amount borrowed on all of her PDLs.

She signed up for two PDLs which transpired automatically into thirteen PDLs. Apparently there is something in the contract which states that other PDLs will automatically transpire from the original. These new PDLs aren't just rollovers, they are from an entirely different lender.

I've noticed quite a few PDL lenders are considered illegal no matter in which state the money received.

If the originating PDL is considered illegal, wouldn't that in turn make all of the automatically generated PDLs illegal also?


Hi, Lorri. Thanks for the response. That is correct - she electronically signed two separate PDLs and ended up with thirteen. Yes, she received the money from all of them and, of course, was having money debited from her bank account to all lenders. She was in over her head with the first two and I think she just kind of withdrew from all of it when the other eleven hit her. She didn't want to go to her family with this kind of burden. I just finally learned all of this a couple of weeks ago. Her account has been closed and the bank notified of the situation. Do you think it is possible to claim that all are illegal if the first two are considered illegal?


lrhall41

Submitted by firstwizard on Tue, 08/12/2008 - 21:29

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Okay---I think I understand, but it sure sounds suspicious. Now this is just my opinion, but I would definitely think that if the first 2 were illegal the following ones would have to be. But, I of course, know none of this for sure. Who were the original 2 with if I may ask?


lrhall41

Submitted by Lorri on Tue, 08/12/2008 - 21:39

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You are right - I have come to the right place. I've done tons of searching and this place is a goldmine of information. I'm missing just a few key pieces.

Sending a C & D letter to National Credit Adjusters (they purchased five of her accounts) tomorrow. I believe three of those five accounts are affiliated with OSL Marketing, all said to be illegal.

Do you have any info regarding Eagle Finance or Vince Enterprise?


lrhall41

Submitted by firstwizard on Tue, 08/12/2008 - 22:11

( Posts: 22 | Credits: )


I was supposed to call NCA Monday to further discuss our payment options. After seeing that CMG, SSM, DJR, and TJF are considered illegal I have decided that we've paid them enough. Jason G. from NCA was very pleasant on Friday. He had no problems telling me the name of the creditors and how much they say they are owed. Vince Enterprise is the fifth account. I'm just going to gamble that they, too, are illegal. Each of these lenders has been paid more than the principal amount. I'm guessing that Jason won't be as nice the next time I talk to him.


lrhall41

Submitted by firstwizard on Tue, 08/12/2008 - 22:27

( Posts: 22 | Credits: )


I just can't believe that she only signed 2 contracts and got 13 loans.

I'm sorry, but that just isn't very believable. Is it possible that she is trying to mitigate her "involvement" in it to make herself look better to you? You said that you just decided to give the marriage another try. It sounds to me like she is not telling the whole truth. It's just not really possible for that to happen the way it was explained. Not 13 times. Maybe she filled out a bunch of applications and didn't think she had submitted them, or something, but it's very difficult to believe her story as is. I really mean no offense to you, and dont' want you to get mad at me for saying that, but I've been on this board for years and have never heard of such a thing. PDL's want money, and loaning without a contract is a risk most aren't going to take. Yeah, sometimes people will get an extra loan, but not 13.

Also, I disagree with others - Just because the first 2 loans were illegal doesn't mean the rest automatically are. It would all depend on the companies licensing status and what state you are in.


lrhall41

Submitted by goudah2424 on Wed, 08/13/2008 - 07:38

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Firstwizard...IMHO...I would focus more on how to resolve this than spending energy on whether the other 11 are illegal or not because she did not sign anything other than the original 2 contracts. I understand what you are saying about there is no signed contract for the other 11, however, she DID receive the money and if she paid it back already through fees, then, technically, you are done.

Let's get started on getting you out of this PDL trap...Can you list EACH PDL, original loan amount, total amount paid to date, AND WHAT STATE YOU RESIDE IN!

This will help us help you to determine whether 1) they are legal to lend in your state and 2) what amount you owe (if any). If the PDL lenders are illegal, then technically you may not have to pay them back. Morally, (we advocate that) you should. The decision is yours.

Please list the necessary information.


lrhall41

Submitted by desperatelyseekingsanity on Wed, 08/13/2008 - 07:56

( Posts: 1129 | Credits: )


well, i agree that sometimes they credit money to your account (happened to me once) but 11 does seem over the top. i agree that she probably sumbitted a bunch online and ended up agreeing to something she didn't mean to. i'm not saying it's right but it might be legal, i really don't know.
is the account closed? we do need to know what state you're in, how much was borrowed, how much was paid and the companies for all of them.


lrhall41

Submitted by bea2ls on Wed, 08/13/2008 - 10:15

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I would question her pretty extensively about what she signed. You need to be 100% sure that she only signed 2 contracts and those contracts were for only one loan each. If she only signed the two then in my opinion the rest of them are out of luck. I agree with Goudah that it is unlikely that she only signed up for 2 loans and received 13 though. It would also help if you listed each company, the amount borrowed and the amount paid back so you can get help in determining what you morally owe.


lrhall41

Submitted by DOLLARSandSINCE on Wed, 08/13/2008 - 10:29

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from a conflict resolution standpoint... deal with it this way, regardless of who signed what... first step is done.. account protected. next step establish the legality of each and every one.. illegal ones vs legal ones (legal in your state) for each of the illegal ones notify them and any involved CA;s of their ilegality, demand the account be considered paind in full. For all where you have paid more than principal amount ask for refund (don't expect to get it) For legal ones not paid, make arrangements to take care of them.


lrhall41

Submitted by jj on Wed, 08/13/2008 - 11:59

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When you complete your application on line, it is sent to the lenders and not all of them contact you with a contract, they only deposit the money in your account, that is what happen to me, and so you have no information, may contact them by emails only


lrhall41

Submitted by on Wed, 08/13/2008 - 13:07

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That seems so very illegal Marcella (and others). Which doesn't surprise me at all. So what is being said here is that when you sign up for a PDL and they can send it to affiliates and those affiliates approve more loans without your signature? Or are they using the signatures on the original ones?


lrhall41

Submitted by Lorri on Wed, 08/13/2008 - 13:38

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As far as affiliates go - You fill out an application, and that application is sent to a few lenders. Most pdl's get their customers through affiliates.

It's not illegal - If you were to read the T&C of the site, it will say that they are not the lender. Most of the time it says that at the bottom of the page something along the lines of

"We are not a payday lender. We will forward your application to our clients to help you get your payday loan."

Quote:

Does the site have a real provider company name associated with it?
You might be surprised to find out that a large number of websites that look like providers really are not! A large number of providers use what is called "Affiliate Marketing" to expand their reach. Some do this well by only offering a link from the affiliates website to theirs. But some put privacy and security at risk by allowing the affiliate website to collect your personal data and then transfer the information over to the actual provider. This in general is not a secure practice and should be avoided if at all possible. Along with affiliate marketing are sites that are not directly affiliated with a provider. These sites will collect data from you then market your information around to any provider interested in your portfolio.


Affiliates are actually a very common practice.


lrhall41

Submitted by goudah2424 on Wed, 08/13/2008 - 13:50

( Posts: 7935 | Credits: )


I copied the post here, with some additional comments, to make it easier.

Here is the list of PDLs (all internet), the amount borrowed from each, and the amount paid to each. We are in Wisconsin.

1) CMG Group: Borrowed 200; Paid 240
2) DJR Group: Borrowed 250; Paid 300
3) SSM Group: Borrowed 300; Paid 360
4) TJF Corp: Borrowed 300; Paid 360
5) Vince Enterprise: Borrowed 300; Paid 360

NOTE: These 5 accounts apparently were purchased by National Credit Adjusters. The total amount borrowed from these 5 PDLs is $1350. The total amount paid back on these 5 PDLs is $1650. NCA claims we owe a total of $2100 on these 5 PDLs. NCA has offered to deduct 25% ($525) from the $2100 if we make a one-time payment very soon. Do I pay the $1575 making our repaid total $3225 on a loan total of $1350?

My time for making a voluntary decision has apparently run out. I was supposed to call on Monday but hesitated after seeing evidence on this site that four of these are considered illegal. NCA called today and said if we did not call by 5 pm they would start verification of refusal to pay. I got home at 5:45. I wasn't going to call them anyway, as I have made the decision not to pay any further on these loans (payments to each is over and above the principal amount borrowed) and send NCA a C & D letter.

6) Ameriloan: Borrowed 300; Paid 360
7) a2bcash: Borrowed 400; Paid 496
8 United Cash Loans: Borrowed 300; Paid 360
9) Eagle Finance: Borrowed 100; Paid 107.50
10) Payday Online: Borrowed 250; Paid 400 (My wife set up a payment plan with this PDL after they had already deducted $300 from her bank account. We have paid an additional $100 on the payment plan for a repaid total of $400. They claim we still owe $320. Do I continue to pay the agreed upon $50 every two weeks?

11) Impact Cash Payday Loans: Borrowed 300; **Paid 270 (three $90 payments: (6/6/08, 6/20/08, 7/3/08

12) Big Limited Loan: Borrowed 200; **Paid 70 (one payment: 6/20/08

13) Cash Supply: Borrowed 500; **Paid 300 (two $150 payments: 6/23/08, 7/3/08

**Amount listed as paid to each of the last 3 PDLs is the KNOWN amount. The TOTAL amount paid is questionable as there were some deductions from my wife's account that I could not match (with certainty) to these PDLs.
Here is that list of deductions, and my assertions:

a) Big ACH: $80 5/23/08, $75 6/6/08, $65 7/3/08. Looking past the common use of "Big" I assume these belong to Big Limited Loan - the 6/20/08 payment date missing here shows up under Big Limited Loan payment on bank statement as a $70 payment. If true: total paid to Big Limited Loan is $290.

b) IC Endless Summer Payday Loans: $90 5/23/08. Looking past the initials "IC" I assume this is Impact Cash. Loan received from Impact Cash on 5/6/08. First KNOWN payment on bank statement is 6/6/08, one month after loan was issued. The "IC" payment date of 5/23/08 fills in the missing 5/23/08 Impact Cash payment date and fits with the pay structure I see in all of the other PDLs. If true: total amount paid to Impact Cash Payday Loans is $360.

c) Payday Payments: $135.98 and $135.98 both on 5/23/08. I assume these belong to Cash Supply for the simple reason that there is nothing left to match them to. If true: total amount paid to Cash Supply is $571.96.

I have asked my wife repeatedly if it is possible that she electronically signed and/or submitted up to 13 loan applications. She always says she knows of two, though she can't remember which ones they were.

This is what I've found on this site:
CMG Group, DJR Group, SSM Group - all illegal (part of OSL Marketing)

TJF Corp. - illegal

ameriloan - illegal

United Cash Loans - illegal

BIG Limited Loan - illegal

Paydayonline - have seen it's same as 500fastcash (part of Rio Resources in Oklahoma and was told to cease and desist lending activity by the state of OK for lack of license - that was 2006 or 2007. Have they since acquired a license?

Impact Cash Payday Loans - in Utah, have not determined if they are licensed.

a2bcash - in California, have not determined if they are licensed.

Cash Supply - in New Mexico, they are licensed.

Vince Enterprise - no information

Eagle Finance - no information


lrhall41

Submitted by firstwizard on Wed, 08/13/2008 - 16:50

( Posts: 22 | Credits: )


I've read the thread and a few things popped into my ever-thinking brain.

First, check into 'Usury' laws and the Business and Professions Codes.

Next, there are a few interesting sites I recommend reading, if nothing else:

(doublU, doublU doublU dot) budhibbs.com

OR groups.yahoo.com/commercial_redemption

OR ripoffreport.com

If all else fails just type into the google search things like:

Payday Loan Federal Lawsuits
Court Rulings on Payday Loan Lawsuits
Codes that govern Payday Loans

Ect.

God bless.


lrhall41

Submitted by on Wed, 08/13/2008 - 23:51

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I was reading your new post and started thinking perhaps you should start another account and close the one you have?

My opinion is that once they SAY you owe...and you PAY anything, even a penny....you've just CONTRACTED WITH THEM THAT YOU AGREE YOU OWE THEM THE AMOUNT THEY SAY. Don't pay them another dime. Get advice of the sites I listed, it's probable you have a lawsuit.


lrhall41

Submitted by on Wed, 08/13/2008 - 23:57

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After reviewing your numbers it looks like you overpaid all of them but maybe 1 and it is even questionable. They are just trying to scam you out of a bunch of money. If I were cleaning up this mess I would send them all cease comm letters with a breakdown of what I paid showing overpayment and my state laws attached demanding a refund, lock up my bank account change any phone numbers I could and be done with it based on your figures. I would also state any further communication would need to be made through the court system. Unfortunately most of them will just ignore that and continue to harass you over the phone but if one of them actually ever makes it to court at least you have record.


lrhall41

Submitted by DOLLARSandSINCE on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 05:48

( Posts: 1078 | Credits: )


Vince Enterprise is actually with Prestige Marketing. I just dealt with them and they were actually pretty easy to work with. Since you have paid the principal back, they should be able to mark your account as paid in full. I sent emails to the following email addresses:

[email]lana@prestigegm.com[/email]
[email]steven@prestigegm.com[/email]
[email]customerservice@prestigegm.com[/email]

The fax number is 1-877-878-4700
The phone number is 1-877-878-2700

Good luck!


lrhall41

Submitted by thlovely1 on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 06:27

( Posts: 99 | Credits: )


Quote:

My opinion is that once they SAY you owe...and you PAY anything, even a penny....you've just CONTRACTED WITH THEM THAT YOU AGREE YOU OWE THEM THE AMOUNT THEY SAY. Don't pay them another dime. Get advice of the sites I listed, it's probable you have a lawsuit.


That is not true at all.

And this site is the best site on the net for dealing with payday loans. You will not find better advice elsewhere.


lrhall41

Submitted by goudah2424 on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 07:00

( Posts: 7935 | Credits: )


this really is the best site for payday loans. nevermind best site, it's the best advice i have ever recieved on payday loans, period (inlcuding my lawyer, who told me to throw former loans into my bankruptcy - they are prohibited in my state!)
you can trust the info given to you here. i was tangled in some messy situations with loans, credit cards, etc. and now i only have one payday loan and one credit card to deal with.


lrhall41

Submitted by bea2ls on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 12:31

( Posts: 3840 | Credits: )


Received a few calls from BIG.

They said my wife owes $440 on the original loan of $200. First they offered to drop that to $400. When I refused to grant an ACH authorization they dropped the total to $300. I said I would only send a money order through the postal service (I had no intention of doing that, either). They refused to give a postal address stating it was their policy to accept only an automatic bank account debit or moneygram. I was asked what I wanted them to do. I told him to mark the account paid in full. He refused, of course.

I said they were considered an illegal lending company within the U.S. They claim they are legal to do business in 17 states, including Wisconsin. Is this true? I know Wisconsin allows internet lending if the lender is licensed in the state in which they are located. What about other countries? The guy from BIG said the loan originated in London.


lrhall41

Submitted by firstwizard on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 18:04

( Posts: 22 | Credits: )


Shazzers, thanks for that license # advice.

BIG customer service (877-282-5450) told me to check their website (cash2day4u.com) for that information. Found nothing resembling a license #.

I called BIG's collection department and told them I was considering applying for a loan but first I wanted their license # to verify their legal status to lend to customers in my state. He was surprised by my question and asked how I got this number. I told him he'd be surprised how much one can find on the internet. He gave me the number for customer service for cash2day4u.com (800-680-2177).
To cash2day4u I said I was interested in a loan but wanted their license # to check their legality in my state, Wisconsin. She said they don't lend to anyone "over there." Those applications are denied. I asked what would happen if I did get accepted. She said I would not be accepted. I asked her if cash2day4u was affiliated with B.I.G. Answer: Yes. I thanked her and hung up.

The cash2day4u website claims that they record a confirmation call with an applicant. If they are affiliated with B.I.G. there should be a recorded conversation with my wife in their possession. Back to the phone.


lrhall41

Submitted by firstwizard on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 19:23

( Posts: 22 | Credits: )


Spent 56 minutes on the phone with collections department supervisor at BIG.

BIG has the recording and played it. Yes, it was my wife.
Maybe it was a mistake to keep them on the phone that long because they have now threatened, promised rather, to call my wife at work repeatedly with all 250 operators. Scare tactic? I'm sure my wife is hoping so. Will a C & D letter even work with them since their collections department is part of the original creditor? I don't have an address and the e-mail address I got earlier didn't work. Or I just couldn't understand his accent.

The supervisor grew rather frustrated, began taking an indecent tone with me, even called me a beggar. Came close to calling me worse but he stopped himself. His final offer was to reduce payment to original loan amount of $200. I told him to give me an address to which I can send a money order. He wouldn't allow it. Can't that be considered refusal to accept payment? I told him I wanted the address anyway but he still wouldn't give it to me. Nor would he give the license number.

Called cash2day4u.com again. Now I'm told they can lend to Wisconsin residents. As far as their affiliation with BIG - I was told BIG uses the cash2day4u website.

Sending a complaint to the FTC and Wisconsin's AG.

If they are legal to lend in Wisconsin, I think I've lost all chances for a discount.

Any suggestions?


lrhall41

Submitted by firstwizard on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 20:52

( Posts: 22 | Credits: )


Call your Wisconsin Department of Financial Institutions:
Phone: (608) 261-9555
Fax: (608) 261-7200

Ask them if B.I.G is licensed to lend in the state of Wi, also ask them if cash2day4u is licensed to lend in your state. That should clear up any questions. I would venture to say neither one of these are licensed. If you would like to check for yourself CLICK HERE, but I didn't find a license for either one.


lrhall41

Submitted by Shazzers on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 21:49

( Posts: 17344 | Credits: )


Yeah I am almost positive it is part of the Cash Today Limited group out of the UK. It????????s a scam. They can't collect. The will however harass you over the phone until you change your contact info. I personally would end all communications with them. They will just wear you out if you keep spending an hour a day on the phone with them and you aren't going to get anywhere with them anyway. They completely disregard the law and any form of written communication. Heck you know you are dealing with illegal scum bags when they won't give you an address to send a payment too. All they want is electronic access to your accounts so they can drain them again.


lrhall41

Submitted by DOLLARSandSINCE on Fri, 08/15/2008 - 07:06

( Posts: 1078 | Credits: )


Four months have passed and slowly but surely we are getting ourselves out of this mess. 8 of 13 PDLs have been satisfied.

NCA (creditor for 5 PDLs) wanted $2100. Settled for $1050.
Cash Supply wanted $500. Settled for $450. Probably could have settled for less.
Payday Online wanted $470. Paid $470 (my wife did not try to negotiate a lower settlement).
B.I.G. wanted $490. Settled for $220.

I have grown tired of the game. We are saving a portion of our paychecks and, as lenders call, I negotiate for a lesser settlement. I am not contacting any of them, however. I don't think that these companies that try to fly under the radar by limiting their contact info deserve my time.

ameriloan, United Cash Loans, a2bcash, Eagle Finance, and Impact Cash remain on our unfulfilled list.


lrhall41

Submitted by firstwizard on Tue, 01/13/2009 - 18:57

( Posts: 22 | Credits: )


beli2005, i know for me - where none of my loans were legal - i just honestly wanted them paid off. so they were off my back and i met my moral obligation. mind you, there are some that never worked out for me but i did settle with as many as i could have.
but i didn't really read over this thread so my answer might be off base


lrhall41

Submitted by bea2ls on Thu, 01/15/2009 - 08:55

( Posts: 3840 | Credits: )


beli2005 - My wife took out these loans while we were separated for 6 months. She also maxed out four credit cards (2 of them carrying 23 - 24% interest charges), among other financial pitfalls. If I didn't step up to fix this mess when we reconciled, she would have agreed to any amount these lenders wanted. Though many, if not all, of her PDLs may be illegal, she took the loans agreeing to the terms and conditions set forth in all her contracts. She does not remember agreeing to all of them (only 2) but she got the money so she is obligated to at least pay back the principal amount borrowed. I think all principal amounts were covered with the two-week fees she had deducted from her account.
I don't have the time to try to prove the legality of 13 PDLs let alone the time or energy to convince each illegal lender of their unlawful activity. Their calls would continue. We both have good jobs and can afford to pay these off over time. I don't agree with the outrageous fees they charge, which is why I attempt to settle for a lesser amount with each lender. I have been successful in that with 9 of the 10 PDLs we have paid off. My wife settled for full price with the other.
Another thing I need to think about: Say I was able to prove successfully that each (or most) of these was illegal and did not have to pay anything. My wife would not have had to suffer any consequences. She was a free spender. She wanted something, she bought it. Now, with all these bills that need to be paid, she can't do that. Since July 2008 we have paid over $25,000.00 in bills, much of it owed to her lack of financial discipline. There isn't much left over to do the things we'd like to do. Each month I show her how much was paid just to give her an idea of things we could have done with that money.
Yes, our kids and I are suffering from her actions, too. For me, though, it is a small price to pay if she truly learns something from this. I think she is finally believing in the power of a budget. She used to think that a budget was my way of trying to control our income and would not try it for more than a week. She could not understand that a budget can open hundreds of doors. Brainstorm our short and long term goals (purchases, trips, savings, etc.), plan for them, save for them, realize them, live them.

-- Firstwizard


lrhall41

Submitted by on Thu, 02/19/2009 - 16:42

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