Arrow Financial and Wells Fargo

Call or visit your state DMV and ask them to look up the lien information on that VIN number. That will determine who is holding the title to your car. It should still be the bank as the title could not be transferred unless Arrow paid off the balance. Not likely!

Arrow has not even validated the debt as required by law so they can't legally collect anything. Get all your info documented and file a complaint at the OCC website against Wells Fargo and the FTC and BBB against Arrow. Get an attorney if you can.

Arrow is a bottom feeder...if they bought the debt for pennies on the dollar...

Confused about how that works with respect to title ownership.

So if the DMV shows WF as the lien holder, will THEY negotiate settlement or will I still have to deal with Arrow?

OCC website? What's OCC?

bump!

I looked it up and it stands for Office of the Comptroller of the Currency......


http://www.occ.treas.gov/

Can anyone answer my questions, please?

Here's my questions:

1. WHO has title to the car? WF or Arrow?

2. WHO do I try to settle with?

3. On my credit reports, it shows Arrow as an open account (NOT a collection account) with Type of Loan as a FACTORING COMPANY Account. Do I dispute this FIRST with the CR or with Arrow? What do I SAY in the letter?

Dispute it with arrow first then wait at least 30 day or more before you dispute it with your credit report. If they do not respond to your validation letter but verify it as accurate on your credit report, call an attorney and sue them.


I am not sure on your other question, but I think the bank still holds the title to the car, that's my guess. Whoever holds the title is who you have to settle with.

I disputed the dunning letter...and told them any reporting would be a violation...guess I'll have to send ANOTHER...btw...still no validation.

I called WF and they told me I had to speak with Arrow...called Arrow and they said WF had all the documentation...it's been 3 months and I have not heard from anyone.

Please help!

bump again!

Please help!

do as frogpatch advises.get an attorney if you can.file complaints and a lawsuit against ARROW.no wonder wells fargo went in the tub.hiring a HUGE bottomfeeder to collect for them.

what state are you in?

Illinois

File a lawsuit against Arrow on what grounds?

for continuing to collect after you sent proper validation.ask shazzers about ARROW.they are a bottomfeeder of the first magnitude.be proactive in this case,not reactive.

Thanks Paul, but the issue here is that I am trying to get the title on my car, but I don't know who to pay. WF says to contact Arrow and Arrow says they are waiting for paperwork from WF - it's been 3 months!

Other than Arrow reporting on my CBR (which I understand is a form of collecting) and they are in violation, right now I need to get that title to the car.

My best guess would be the original creditor has your title. You need to file a complaint with the FTC and let them know that Arrow Financial has violated the Fair Debt Collection Practices. Scan and submit all of your paper work along with the complaint, especially the validation letter, and a copy of the return receipt that Arrow received it. I would also submit copies of your credit report showing that Arrow continued to report during the validation period, that is clearly a violation of the FDCP and you can actually sue them for it, I believe you can sue for up to the amount of $1000.00. Also print out a copy of your complaint with the FTC. These steps are building a case against Arrow for you. I would call the Original Creditor and tell them you want to buy back the title to your car, ask to speak with a Manager.

Thx Shazz!

Another question...if WF sold the account and Arrow is a JDB, does that mean that Arrow actually purchased the debt, therefore, WF no longer is involved?

I would think a Financial Institution would be responsible for informing the consumer where that car title is located. I'm sure they sold the debt to Arrow, that's what Arrow is known for. But, I would still call the bank and ask them to locate the title. You might also do a title search at the DMV, it might cost you a few bucks but at least you'll know who actually holds the title! Even if Arrow is holding the title, you can still build a case against them, and if you do that title search and discover Arrow is holding it the only way you will probably get it returned is by calling them on their FDCP violations. When debts start changing hands a lot of documentation starts getting lost.

Desparately, I'm sorry I didn't catch your post when you first made it. Before I start accusing Wells Fargo & Arrow of breaking Illinois laws, I want to make sure that WF indeed "sold" the debt to Arrow. Is that what WF told you? It is possible that WF simply contracts Arrow to collect on its accounts, in which case WF still owns the paper and has your title, but Arrow just acts as a CA to collect.

If WF indeed "sold" the debt to Arrow, then there are definitely some state laws being broken. The laws being violated depend whether your loan falls under the "Retail Installment Sales Act / Sales Finance Agency Act" or the "Consumer Installment Loan Act." The key difference is whether you purchased the car through a dealership and Wells Fargo financed the sale (Sales Finance), or did you go into a Wells Fargo office and take out a "secured loan" by giving them the title to the vehicle (Consumer Installment). Another way to tell is by where the proceeds of the loan went -- did Wells Fargo cut a check to the car dealer (Sales Finance), or did they cut a check to you (Consumer Installment)?

Let me first say that Wells Fargo holds both an SF license AND a CI license -- so they are authorized to do either type of loan. On the contrary, Arrow Financial does not have either type of loan license (they are simply a collection agency/JDB). This is where your legalities come into play, because Arrow is not licensed.

I am going to assume this is a Retail Installment Contract for the actual purchase of the vehicle. But I will address CI loans later, so that you have ammunition either way.

BASICALLY, for Arrow to purchase your retail installment contract from Wells Fargo, they would need to be licensed as a Sales Finance Agency.




So therein, Arrow is violating the law by purchasing a retail installment contract without first obtaining a license to act as a sales finance agency. Read next, YOU WILL LOVE THIS:


Wells Fargo is in the wrong, too, for selling the contract to an unlicensed entity. They risk having their license revoked.


Any questions yet?
=============================================
Now let's address the Consumer Installment Loan Act, in case your loan falls under those statutes:


Arrow is neither of the above.

SO, which ever type of contract you had, Wells Fargo should not have sold it to Arrow.

Now, I can't tell you where your title is. Generally, in a legal transaction, the title would be transferred to the purchaser.

The State Dept of Financial Institutions takes complaints very seriously, and would address your issue if you file a complaint with them. Their contact information is on their website at http://www.idfpr.com/dfi/CCD/ccd_main.asp

WOW DC - Thanks! Lot's of interesting stuff you wrote!

Yes, I did buy it at the dealership and WF paid the dealership directly so it is indeed a SF transaction.

I will contact WF again and confirm that they sold it to Arrow...you know how the service reps can get info wrong (ROFLMAO)!

So...for simplicity's sake...let's assume that WF DID NOT Sell it to Arrow...what actions do you recommend I take to get the title (meaning...do I negotiate with Arrow or with WF)? It's been several months since I DV'd Arrow and no info yet...

BTW...if a CA is a JDB...do they actually BUY the debt or are they/can they still be collecting for the OC?

Because it does seem to be so highly illegal, and I doubt WF would risk losing their license (would put them out of business), I would tend to say they probably did not sell it to Arrow.

So WF probably just contracts with Arrow to collect on on it's accounts. (In which case, if Arrow collects $$, they would forward the payment to WF to post against your account). AND technically, if WF contracts with Arrow to collect, WF should have obtained approval from the State DFI first: http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/038/038001600A02500R.html

When WF sends an account for collection, they may or may not deal directly with you anymore. IE if you call them, they can tell you that Arrow is handling the account and refer you to them to settle the balance.

Arrow should have responded to your DV according to the FDCPA, and so they are in the wrong for not validating the debt. You could threaten to sue them, refuse to pay until they validate, etc .... But that doesn't help you get your title back any sooner, and waiting for their DV actually prolongs your title.

I would write a letter to WF, telling them that Arrow has not been co-operative, and that they are violating the FDCPA by not responding to your DV. In your letter, explain your situtation, that you are trying to pay to get your title, but you are getting the runaround from both WF and Arrow.

You can also request an accounting of your balance directly through WF, even if they have sent the account to Arrow for collection:


In your letter, you might reference the fact that WF should have obtained DFI authorization for Arrow to service the accounts. Tell them if DFI did not authorize Arrow to collect, then you refuse to deal with Arrow, and will file complaints against WF if they persist in referring you to Arrow.

That should get their attention, and hopefully get them to deal directly with you instead of telling you to call Arrow.

In the end, you can always call the State and tell them what is going on. In the least, DFI will send a letter to WF requiring them to explain the situation to the State. That will definitely get their attention, because then they will be on the state's radar.

GREAT INFO DC!! Thank you SOOOO much! Guess I'll be writing my letters this weekend! Will f/u with this post to let you know how it's going and what the outcome is!

Again, thanks DC and everyone who posted here! I appreciate the help!

DSS...(know you know why my name is "Desperately Seeking Sanity!!) LOL

Hey DebtCruncher...

Is there a way for me to check to see if WF obtained DFI authorization for Arrow to service the account? (per your directive above...) :)

Not really. You could ask WF, or you can call the state and ask them. That's really the only two ways to find out.

Hey DC...I checked my credit report and Arrow is showing there as a "Factoring Account Company (debt purchaser)."

Is this sufficient proof to give to the DFI/AG that WF & Arrow are violating the CI Laws - (since Arrow is not licensed per(205 ILCS 660/15))???

What does WF say on your credit report? Do they show a zero-balance?

I can't exactly say that Arrow being on your credit report is bona fide evidence that they bought the debt. But if they did, then WF should likely show a zero-balance and "transferred".

The burden's not really on you to "prove" anything. I'd say to just call the state and explain your situation. They'll take your complaint and if DFI believes there's any wrongdoing, then they'll send an auditor out to WF to look at your file.

Call 312-814-5145 and ask for Barton Applebaum, he's a manager of the consumer credit section.

Thanks for the info! Just curious...any idea what Mr. Applebaum might be able to do?

Yes...my credit report under WF says "zero." I'll have to double check the transferred notation, but I THINK it does say that.

HEY DC...I just got off the phone with Arrow and they said that they OWN the account - they bought it - and that they ARE licensed as a Sales Finance Agency...hmmm....

On a different note...I spoke with Mr. Applebaum and he said if Arrow purchased the charge off, then they don't have to be licensed as a Sales Finance Agency. He told me to hire an attorney... :(

I am at my wits end...

In Mr. Applebaum's defense, he's under a lot of stress right now (I assume). Our license renewals were due 12/1/08 (which my company remitted and paid on time), and DFI still hasn't sent out our new licenses yet for this year. I called Mr. Applebaum last month regarding the issue and he could only tell me "his office was really backed up and hasn't even gotten to the renewals yet." Further, every lender in the state had an annual report due by 3/1, which Mr. Applebaum has to go through, compile, and submit the statistics to the general assembly. So he's got a big workload, and maybe he just didn't have the time to really sit down and address your issue. I'm sorry he wasn't more helpful to you (... me apologizing for the state lol...). I just feel bad that I referred you to him, and the outcome wasn't as I promised.

That blows my mind. Granted I'm not an attorney, so I can only interpret the laws as they would make sense to me, but I thought the laws I quoted above made a lot of sense ... that Arrow would be considered an SF agency and needed to be licensed if they bought "outstanding balances under such contract."

BUT If the state doesn't think Arrow needs to be licensed, then who am I to argue otherwise? Maybe they don't need to be licensed to buy defaulted debts.

The problem as it stands is: Where is the title? If WF sold your debt to Arrow, then Arrow should have your title too. Theoretically, then, when you pay Arrow they have to give you the title.

My question to you is: How badly do you need your title? Do you need it like ASAP, or do you have time to threaten Arrow for a while? Or do you want to entertain the idea of getting an attorney?

Answer those, and then we'll go further.

My problem is I can't register the car here in IL (tags expired in my old state - need to bring car here now). IL DMV said I need title or original note (which I can't find due to move)...WF won't give me any info, nor will Arrow. I am going back home at the end of the month, and I will re-register the car there and bring it here...

At this point, I have phone calls into several NACA attorneys (none of whom have called me back yet)...the fact that Arrow has not DV'd and they continue to accrue fees and interest and are reporting on my credit reports, I believe they are in violation of the FDCPA laws...if I can get the car registered, I will be HAPPY to go the distance and sue them.

What are your ideas?

What state is your car registered in? More importantly, if you lived in a different state when you bought the car, then your loan may not fall under IL laws at all (which apparently don't matter anyway :( )

Personally, since they are playing games, I would too. IE go to their website, download WF logo, and create a lien release letter. Then you can go to your home state, apply for a duplicate/corrected title, provide the state with the lien release, and you'll get your title back without WF on it. Then you can bring the title back to IL and register it in IL in just your name.

That has just a tinge of illegality to it, but the odds of them finding out are actually a lot less than you'd think.

Otherwise, it's probably time to start writing nasty letters to both WF corporate and Arrow. One of them has your title. Maybe you can find an attorney who will simply write a letter for you and threaten to file suit, and I guarantee when they get a letter on attorney letterhead, they'll find your title pretty quick.

Then, after you get your title, you can still sue them for violating the FDCPA.

Hey DC...I'll PM you.

I contacted WF yesterday (after waiting 4 months for info)and told them that Arrow had not provided any info...Arrow was saying that they were waiting for info from WF...yesterday afternoon, I got a call from Arrow saying they got the info and mailed it to me that day!!! (Can anyone say "bulls**t?) lol We'll see if it comes in the mail this week...

good luck, hope you receive it!

Thx Smo...i'll let you know if it arrives or not... ;)