My first DV - Zwicker thru AMEX
Date: Mon, 09/06/2010 - 17:08
This letter is being sent to you in response to a notice dated xxxx sent to me. Be advised that this is not a refusal to pay, but a notice sent pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, 15 USC 1692g Sec. 809 (b) that your claim is disputed and validation is requested. Debt collectors cease collection of a debt until verification is mailed to consumers.
This is NOT a request for "verification" or proof of my mailing address, but a request for VALIDATION made pursuant to the above named Title and Section. I respectfully request that your offices provide me with competent evidence that I have any legal obligation to pay you.
As per the FDCPA, I have the right to request a validation of this debt. I request you to prove that I am indeed the party who is by contract obligated to pay off this debt.
Please attach copies of the following documents:
1. Agreement with your client that authorizes you to collect on this alleged debt.
2. Agreement that bears signature of the alleged debtor wherein he promises to pay the creditor.
3. Complete payment history on this account so as to prove that the debt amount you wish to collect is correct.
I would also like to request, in writing, that no telephone contact be made by your offices to my home or to my place of employment. If your offices attempt telephone communication with me, including but not limited to computer generated calls and calls or correspondence sent to or with any third parties, it will be considered harassment and I will have no choice but to file suit. All future communications with me MUST be done in writing and sent to the address noted in this letter by USPS.
It would be advisable that you assure that your records are in order before I am forced to take legal action. This is an attempt to correct your records, any information obtained shall be used for that purpose.
You might wanna read the section you are quoting. Nowhere does
You might wanna read the section you are quoting. Nowhere does it say that they have to product ANY of that information. 1 and 3 they are DEFINATELY not required to supply....#2, most should be able to supply.
Also, you cannot request a "partial" cease and desist....it is all or nothing. They are not required to communicate only via mail. In most cases, especially with AMEX, they wont bother validating but instead close the account with a legal recommendation which means your next communication will probably be with an attorney.
If this is just a case of verifying that the CA is authorized to collect, I would definately suggest calling AMEX directly....what you are doing could send you directly to court.
Quote:
??? 809. Validation of debts (a) Within five days after the initial communication with a consumer in connection with the collection of any debt, a debt collector shall, unless the following information is contained in the initial communication or the consumer has paid the debt, send the consumer a written notice containing??? (1) the amount of the debt; (2) the name of the creditor to whom the debt is owed; (3) a statement that unless the consumer, within thirty days after receipt of the notice, disputes the validity of the debt, or any portion thereof, the debt will be assumed to be valid by the debt collector; (4) a statement that if the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within the thirty-day period that the debt, or any portion thereof, is disputed, the debt collector will obtain verification of the debt or a copy of a judgment against the consumer and a copy of such verification or judgment will be mailed to the consumer by the debt collector; and (5) a statement that, upon the consumer???s written request within the thirty-day period, the debt collector will provide the consumer with the name and address of the original creditor, if different from the current creditor. (b) If the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within...... |
Quote:Originally Posted by SOAPLADYYou might wanna read the sect
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOAPLADY You might wanna read the section you are quoting. Nowhere does it say that they have to product ANY of that information. 1 and 3 they are DEFINATELY not required to supply....#2, most should be able to supply. Also, you cannot request a "partial" cease and desist....it is all or nothing. They are not required to communicate only via mail. In most cases, especially with AMEX, they wont bother validating but instead close the account with a legal recommendation which means your next communication will probably be with an attorney. If this is just a case of verifying that the CA is authorized to collect, I would definately suggest calling AMEX directly....what you are doing could send you directly to court. |
Are you sure? Are you a lawyer? Are you always right? Does this section apply to California? Thank you for advice though. I m TRYING TO SEND MY FIRST DV LETTER BUT I am scared. :(
I was an attorney in Canada. When I first moved to the US I spen
I was an attorney in Canada. When I first moved to the US I spent over 10 years working in student loan collections so I know my FDCPA. My agency also handled AMEX so I know what happened to accounts.
You dont have to be an attorney to read the FDCPA. You are quoting it.....and asking for things based on it. Read it.
Are you disputing the debt?
Quote:Originally Posted by SOAPLADYI was an attorney in Canada.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOAPLADY I was an attorney in Canada. When I first moved to the US I spent over 10 years working in student loan collections so I know my FDCPA. My agency also handled AMEX so I know what happened to accounts. You dont have to be an attorney to read the FDCPA. You are quoting it.....and asking for things based on it. Read it. Are you disputing the debt? |
Is this better?
To whom it may concern:
This is a written request for validation of the debt referred to in your recent letter.
The Federal Trade Commission, in 15 U.SC. 1692g, requires that debt collectors
cease collection of a debt until verification of that debt is mailed to consumers.
Please provide this information in writing via U.S. mail at the address listed above.
Sincerely,
SL-
I did talk to Amex a couple of times a month ago about settling and they keep saying NO. What should I do? I cannot afford to make payments for next few years because things do happen (i.e., car break-downs) and I pay to fix them. I have been trying to save money for settlement or hiring a lawyer.
What is the point of the validation? yes it is your legal right
What is the point of the validation? yes it is your legal right but why do you need it if you know you owe the debt. Have you asked AMEX if the CA is collecting on it? Have you talked to the CA for a settlement? AMEX settles all the time thru their collection agencies.
What would be the purpose of hiring an attorney? AMEX is pretty agressive and you bring an attorney into the mix and they will play hardball, choose not to settle and just decide to sue you.
Me thinks you are just making this too complicated on yourself. Before you start sending out what collectors and agencies view as stall tactics, talk to the CA.
Did you read the thread title? The OP is dealing with Zwicker,
Did you read the thread title? The OP is dealing with Zwicker, not a typical CA...We all know that: AMEX settles all the time thru their collection agencies. But this firm is known for their strongarm tactics and unethical practices. First I'd google their firm to see if they actually have lawyers listed that practice in your state...Quite a few posters here have DV'd them, and been fortunate enough to have them bow out, with the account going to a more favorable CA, most times one that cannot possibly sue...Zwickers gig is to throw out high percentages 70-80%, make threats, and if you make an offer, they will not present it to Amex and they'll just say NO...I would agree there is nothing wrong with talking with them, just make sure you control the conversation, don't be intimidated, and don't provide too much info...They'll try and nail you with your CR, bringing up the bills you pay, ask for employer information, bank info etc.....I'd suggest recording the call as well...Zwicker is known for violating the FDCPA, and even their standard dunning letter has been held to be in violation...With a little luck you can likely settle it yourself, but I disagree with the attorney comment above. Atty's settle cases all the time, do you need one? Well thats up to you but I wouldn't discourage one for fear of playing hardball if you get in a Jam...
Zwicker is no different than any other AMEX attorneys office. T
Zwicker is no different than any other AMEX attorneys office. They will settle...I didnt say they wouldnt. My point is Zwicker is working 3rd party for AMEX...they can and will validate but at what cost? Zwicker can read AMEX files and is well aware that the OP has been in touch with them trying to settle. Also keep in mind there is no obligation legal or moral to settle on any account period. You want to keep the communications open and uncluttered....DV'ing an account that is not in dispute is not a good start. It delays collections efforts and causes additional work for the agency. My advice is to just call them.....be open and honest and ask for a settlement up from.
What next step
Thank you, Maggie! What should I do? Is it ok that I send them a DV the second one I preapred? I want to send something back to them. Should I call Zwicker directly or talk to the Amex first? I would love to do recording - can I do that in Calif?
I send dv letters to everyone even though I know I owe. Who care
I send dv letters to everyone even though I know I owe. Who cares if it makes more work for them and delays collections. That's why I do it.
Definitely send Zwicker DV and in letter state you would like to exericise Arbitration clause in Amex cardholder agreement. This will keep it out of the court system.
You may need to research "Arbitration". :rolleyes:
Great post Maggie hope you respond with more good information.
does anyone know which collection agency american express usuall
does anyone know which collection agency american express usually sends the debt to in new york?
I heart Soaplady. OP - Are you serious about settling? Can you
I heart Soaplady.
OP - Are you serious about settling? Can you fund a good offer? What state are you in?
There is a time and place for sending DV, but it is situational. I get that this board and others are all hopped up on it. I get that Ozzie and perhaps Maggie suggest DV indiscriminately. I get that many on this board and other well populated ones see DV as manna.
Here is the deal; It can backfire and complicate things with many creditors. AMEX is certainly one of those. What is your goal and ability to resolve this account?
Mileage may vary
Quote:Originally Posted by AnonymousMy very first DV letter. Ple
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous My very first DV letter. Please review and correct. Thx! This letter is being sent to you in response to a notice dated xxxx sent to me. Be advised that this is not a refusal to pay, but a notice sent pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, 15 USC 1692g Sec. 809 (b) that your claim is disputed and validation is requested. Debt collectors cease collection of a debt until verification is mailed to consumers. |
This won't stop Zwicker from suing you. They sued me 5 mths after not paying Amex.
I worked out a deal with them through my attorney but it was hardball as they tried to renege on it a few days later. They are very disorganized like a lot of these collection law firms. You can be dealing with a debt collector while an attorney from the same firm is filing a complaint.
Quote:Originally Posted by AnonymousI heart Soaplady. OP - Are
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous I heart Soaplady. OP - Are you serious about settling? Can you fund a good offer? What state are you in? There is a time and place for sending DV, but it is situational. I get that this board and others are all hopped up on it. I get that Ozzie and perhaps Maggie suggest DV indiscriminately. I get that many on this board and other well populated ones see DV as manna. Here is the deal; It can backfire and complicate things with many creditors. AMEX is certainly one of those. What is your goal and ability to resolve this account? Mileage may vary |
I agree there is time and place for DV. I do not DV original credit card company but beleive it is necessary when it has gone to outside agency. Just to be sure they have authority to collect and also buy time.
Also, Michigan's Fair Credit Act throws twist into DV. DV must include balance - payments to get to collection amount. No one that I have DV'd has provided this to me and so no DV per state law = no settlement.
Ozzie,...what you said makes no sense. You can't DV an OC..they
Ozzie,...what you said makes no sense. You can't DV an OC..they are not bound by the FDCPA. So what you basically stated was that you should DV all collection agencys.
Michigans Fair Credit Act...couldnt see anywhere that requires payments...only balance
Some states do have their own laws that apply to original credit
Some states do have their own laws that apply to original creditors as well as 3rd party. My attorney here in Florida sues under Florida statutes because it is much faster and easier to go through district court then Fed. The laws here apply to original creditors. I do not know about Michigan but it is possible!
Quote:Originally Posted by SOAPLADYOzzie,...what you said makes
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOAPLADY Ozzie,...what you said makes no sense. You can't DV an OC..they are not bound by the FDCPA. So what you basically stated was that you should DV all collection agencys. Michigans Fair Credit Act...couldnt see anywhere that requires payments...only balance |
I know I cannot DV OC, that is why I said I "do not" DV OC. Yes, I think you should DV all collection agencies and elect arbitration when in contract.
I did misspeak a bit on what is required by MI. Michigan Fair Debt Collection 339-318 "Verification of the debt or any disputed portion of debt shall include the number and amount of previously made payments and the name and address of the original creditor, if different from the current creditor, or a copy of judgement against the debtor".
Ozzie, What you find productive for you, may not be for others.
Ozzie,
What you find productive for you, may not be for others.
Please also consider that if an individual has the intention to settle a debt, has the ability to fund a favorable offer, regardless of the assignee, and just DV's it until it lands with an attorney authorized to sue and who goes through the expense of validating and now suddenly the consumer, who follows the DV is manna advice all over the internet, is stuck with the specter of settling or being sued; The account balance is now inflated unnecessarily due to additional interest and penalties, attorneys generally do not settle at the favorable rates that would have been on the table had the account been settled prior and at an opportune time, the attorney may have performed a more thorough skip trace and may just say "uh uh... nope... not gonna do it. No settlement."
What then? Can you see what I am driving at?
DV can make settlements more expensive and lead to NO settlement.
Mileage may vary
Always send a DV letter to any CA that contacts you. Even if yo
Always send a DV letter to any CA that contacts you. Even if you know you owe the debt. You do not know that the JDB contacting you owns the account or that the CA contacting you has the right to collect.
Sending the DV letter sets up your rights under FDCPA, so if they don't violate and continue collection activity, you can sue them.
I speak from experience. Zwicker will violate, and they will pay you, and your attorney.
Correction to previous post: Sentence should read: Sending t
Correction to previous post:
Sentence should read:
Sending the DV letter sets up your rights under FDCPA, so if they don't validate and continue collection activity, you can sue them.
Ohioan, I agree with you that there are ample examples of colle
Ohioan,
I agree with you that there are ample examples of collection violations where the collectors have been taken to task in the courts. The statistics are on track to hit 10,000 lawsuits brought against debt collectors this year. Of these, how many are for failure to validate upon request with continued collection action? I do not know, but will suggest the number is a small minority.
Contrast this with how many collection lawsuits are filed in a year. The Slamowitz firm in NY files an average of 80,000 collection suits a year. That's just one firm in NY.
Ohioan and any other DV standard bearers:
Please explain the benefits of DV for someone who:
Wants to resolve their debts
Has resources to fund settlements
Wants to avoid being sued
Wants to recover from debt and move on with their lives and is not geared, like many DV is manna posters all over this and other sites, to fight the good fight
Sending DV after DV letter is not an act of someone who wants and can fund resolution.
DV may be useful in some situations when you need to stall for time in order to gather the money necessary to fund a favorable settlement, but used inappropriately can lead to higher and less favorable settlement terms and can backfire and lead to being sued in order to collect.
DV is certainly useful when you know you are dealing with a debt buyer, but not every account placed after charge off is being collected for a debt buyer. In fact, far from it. Original creditors are holding onto debt longer post charge off. Some creditors don’t sell debts… ever. Pricing for freshly charged off debt portfolios was at low levels earlier this year. Those prices have, on average, doubled. Why? It is not because of newbie’s bidding up prices like its 2004. It’s because there is a limited supply.
Ohioan, sending a DV letter does not set up the rights afforded consumers in the FDCPA. You do not need to send a DV to “activate” some perceived protections. Those rights exist with or without a DV letter.
Please know that I understand the position you and others take on this point. I may in fact know more about the subject than most. I have taken the time to post on DV is manna threads in the way that I do because many people will read these threads who want to, and are well positioned to, resolve their delinquent debts. Following the “always send DV letters – No Matter What” advice may not be consistent with their goals and ability to gain closure to an account(s), and can often be counterproductive.
Mileage may vary
Thank you...someone else who understands my point! As I have sai
Thank you...someone else who understands my point! As I have said over and over again, DVing an account with a third party collection agency(not a JDB) can set you up for being sued quicker. It does not show cooperation and as I have posted in other threads, some agencies wont verify per client rules. It aint worth the time and effort in a first placement...the fees are low and a collector is not sitting around with accounts restricted clogging up his inventory so they are closed back to the client, often for legal placement. It can take up to 6 weeks to go thru the archives and microfiches depending on how old the account is. A simple call to the OC will often verify that the CA is authorized to collect.