Posts that need "moderating"

There's a filter that catches the posts. We don't have control over what get's stuck in the moderation waiting pen. I'm sure there are some key words involved as well as if you maybe posted an active link? It used to happen to me all the time too. And over the past several days we've been inundated wtih well over 1000 "moderation" (mostly SPAM) posts for us to weed through each day :) Hang in there.

And I thought it was just so they had more time to delete posts that contained truthful information backed by links to Gov. sites, but disputed the urban legends being passed off around here as the gospel truth.

Hey, FedUp. If you don't like the information shared on this site, find somewhere else to hang out. We only delete posts that are spam and that violate terms of service. Links are deactivated (per TOS) but we do not delete posts just because someone's opinion differs from our own. Thanks for your participation!

So is one post considered spam? Or is it the telling the truth and backing it up with facts instead of hearsay that violated the TOS?

When I say SPAM, I'm referring to posts that are obvious SPAM. Non-moderators never even see them. Things like "buy Viagra, click this link, etc." Would you care to share what it is that was deleted that has your panties in a wad?

A full explanation of choice of law statutes for many states, how they apply to online PDL contracts, links to several of these type laws, and the explantion given to me by one of the attornney's from the Texas OCCC (who happens to be one of the guys who worked on the language for the PDL/CSO laws in Texas) and how all these play together in such a way that in many states there is no such thing as an "illegal" PDL. If it is done online, and is legal in the state they are operating in then choice of law applies and it is legally the same as if you drove into their office and took out the loan in person. You are bound by the contract and the law of the state the company resides in. Some states have laws that state specificly restrictions for online loans, if so then those apply (Washington is the best example I have seen and more states should follow their lead), and then the advice given here on paying back the principle and nothing else would work, but for states like TX there is no such protection.

sorry but the only state that has any loophole as far as license goes is TN.where if a pdl is licensed in any state then yes the borrower must follow thoes laws.btw the AG oversees pdl's and their license.i don't believe this for a second.give us this attorney's name at least so we can look it up.i doubt you will as it sounds like another attempt to try and justify illegal lenders actions.btw i don't delete stuff like this.it's much too fun proving you wrong and strengthening our info.care to respond to that?

I don't recall the guys name, sorry but you can call OCCC (which deals with licenses and registrations in TX not the AG's office) at (800) 538-1579 (www . occc . state . tx . us) added spaces so it's not an active link and get sent into moderation que. Ask to speak with the legal dept. and discuss in depth with them as I did the legallity of online payday loans. he is the one that reffered me to the Texas Business and Commerce Code 274 and explained to me the choice of law provision.
Since TX has no statute or law that specifically concerns online loans, they law under choice of law and are legal under the state of origins laws. Now there is work going on to change this, as well as end the CSO loophole in TX but ACE Cash Express and several other biggies are based here in TX and are spending tons of money in campaign contributions, lobbying, and of course their lawyers to find new loop-holes so it's an uphill fight. Now as I had said in my deleted post, if you live in TX please contact you state legislature representatives and show support for proposed laws to close the CSO loophole and add more regulations on the PDL industry. Some of these bills are HB 212, 410, 656, 661. Look those up as well on the Texas Legislature site.
Look, I'm like many here and trying to get my tail end out of a bad situation, but I want to do it legally and armed with information I need to prove my point. I followed the advice given here, and was asked to prove it. In trying to do so, I found I was wrong and legally bound by the contract I signed. It sucks, and I am still looking for loopholes but I haven't found any yet. Every state has it's own laws but MOST have a choice of law provision, and like I said unless they state has a statute that specifically says internet or online loans, then the old choice of law still applies and the loan is binding. It sucks, and more states need laws like WA to protect consumers, but it hasn't happened yet. For it to happen, people need to call/write/email their state lawmakers and demand better protection for consumers. Until that happens, many of us are vulnerable to these loan predators.

Guess it's not so much fun when you're the one who has the information wrong? Also, just wanted to point out something else...besides the internet and choice of law thing, TX has another loophole. The whole CSO thing. A true CSO is supposed to help people fix their credit, but under TX law they never added a provision that prevented CSO's from obtaining loans for people and charging outrageous fees. So when they passed the PDL laws, many used the CSO loophole to register as a CSO and continue operating. They could then charge the same fees as before, with no regulations holding them to anything. Their catch is the "3rd party lender" get's 10% intrest on the loan, so it doesn't fall under normal lending regulations and the CSO can charge whatever they want legally because there is no low stopping it. Some of the bills before the house now will make it illegal for a CSO to offer a loan, only give advice, and for any and all fees charged by a lender to be counted as part of the APR so they can no longer disquise their outrageous intrest rates and CSO fees. If these go through, then they will be forced to get licensed by the state and follow the PDL laws of TX.

And another thing, most states have laws regarding PDLs operating in the state. Most like I said before also have a choice of law provision. Now like I said, unless the state says outright their laws cover internet or online loans, then it is presumed the loan was made in good faith in the state where the company resides. Should it go to court and you fight it, there may be precedents that suport you, or you may even be able to set a new one by argueing that you were in a state that is regulated, but it is not a cut and dried matter. Some states like CA have set precedents where since the person resides in CA, the money was spent in CA, and the loan was taken in CA that CA holds jurisdiction over NV based on the states intrest in the funds that were transferred. This might even be admissable in other states, but I'm no laywer so I'm not sure if it would fly.

I'm not buying it. The Ohio Attorney General's office agreed with the info that is shared here. If the company is not licensed to lend in your state, the contract is void to begin with so the choice of law provision is moot.

Ohio may very well support that, but not everywhere will. Like I keep saying I am in TX, I researched TX laws and regulations in depth. I did a few quick Google searches for other states, but nothing like I did for TX laws. And, even though it sucks the fact remains that it's in a grey area outside the law in some states since there are laws for PDLs operating in the state, but no regulation on online transactions. Legally it's still the same as driving across the border and obtaining a loan. Now if Ohio does it differently, then good for folks in Ohio. Like I said, more states need to adopt WA laws imo...they are pretty strict and all inclusive, the best I have seen so far.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I think a good rule of thumb is for everyone to do their own research for the state they're living in. Did you also speak to the TX AG or only the OCCC? I'm curious as to whether they are unified in their opinions. Regardless, If the PDL has no actual presence in your state, standing your ground and reiterating the amount of money they've already made off of you is usually going to get you a decent payoff arrangement, settlement agreement or a PIF at the very least. Many of the stories I've heard from those who live in TX have been very positive and they spoke specifically of help from the OCCC.

And really, I don't care if you're buying it or not. Just any one in TX dealing with PDL's should call the number I posted, look on the website, do their own research if they want, but should not be misled by hearsay and other states regulations. Any one for that matter should research their particular states laws and find out for themselves.

I came here looking for help with PDL's and was told they were illegal and only pay back the principle amount borrowed. I told them that, and they came me the whole we fall under DE law blah blah blah. I told them TX laws apply, not DE since I live in TX. When they asked me for proof of that, BS'ed and said it was from the AG's office. Then I came back here looking for documentation to send these people to get them off my back....no one knew of any, and was told just to ignore them. So I started doing my own homework, and this is when I found all of this out. Buy it or don't, whatever. But if you are not completely protected by your state laws don't be surprised if they still come after your money. It's always your choice on what to do, but best to be armed with all the information before making a decision.

I talked with the AG, and they said I can file complaints about collection issues and forwarded my call to their legal folks. All I ever got there was voicemails and none would return the calls a couple of the regular folks that answer the phones sent me to the OCCC website. It was the OCCC which was very helpful, and like I said I spoke with the attorney there for about an hour on these matters. And i am not saying people can't use the whole "illegal" in my state thing, just be prepared when/if they call BS on you.

And sorry if that seemed snippy at you OhioGal, didn't mean for it to be but when I reread it it seemed that way.

And with the two I am dealing with out of state, I am not looking for any settlement at all. I paid one back more than I borrowed, the other $30 less than I borrowed, but both of them broke the contracts with me and I have filed the complaints with the AG/FTC/BBB but from what I have seen so far it does no good whatsoever. They both deducted amounts different that agreed upon, the both attempted to on days other than agreed upon, and after a verbal agreement was made to send in a payment, they still attempted to deduct funds from the account the next day. It's for these reasons I'm not paying them, nothing to do with if they are illegal in TX or not. Now as far as ACE and Check n Go, well I just told them I'm not paying it period and talk to my lawyer. I'll add the two internet ones in there too, but I'm still trying to find a way for retribution against them for their actions. I'm also trying to find a lawyer that will very cheaply, file a civil suit on ACE Cash Express for their illegal collection activites.

Again, thank you for sharing your exerience. That's what we're here for, afterall...to share our experiences and learn from them. Please do let us know if you can find out the attorney's name with whom you spoke. This has prompted me to want to do more research where TX is concerned. I'll let you know If I find out anything additional.

well as far as the AG'S go they are swamped as my IL AG doesn't respond as quckly as when i filed complaints 4 yrs ago.also i really don't trust lawyers,or any financial branch as in NY their bank dept basically said that same line.that if a loan is internet it is legal,and in ny all pdl's are prohibited.i try to stick with AG'S as they make the laws.lawyers and others are not supposed to interpret them.so be patient with your AG,and keep the communication going as they will help eventually.

Well, from everybody I have talked to so far, it seems the OCCC is the place to go for help and advice in TX. The AG is basically just to file a complaint, which I did some time ago, several of them, but heard nothing in response. And since the OCCC regulates consumer credit transaction in TX, seems to me their job is to interpret the laws and ensure enforcementment of those regulations. Even the complaints filed to the AG regarding consumer credit are forwarded to the OCCC to be dealt with at least that's what the people I spoke with told me, that eventually the complaints I filed will be forwarded to them for looking in to and any possible action that may come out of it. And if you don't trust lawyers, why go to the AG instead of others? I think I would stay away from the lion's den of lawyers and go straight to the experts in the matter if I had a distrust for lawyers.

I think I remember your original post/questions. Was it Skydvr who directed you to the CFA website. If I'm remembering correctly, you couldn't find anywhere on the site where they said that the consumer's state law prevails.

Here's what I found on their site under the "consumer help" section.

[quote]
Beware of Risks from Internet Payday Lending
Borrowing money online is especially hazardous. In addition to the high cost and short payment time for payday loans, Internet payday lending involves added security and privacy risks. Consumers can electronically "sign" contracts and receive required disclosures electronically. Clicking "OK" on a web site can bind you to an expensive loan contract. Internet payday loans can also be more costly than loans from store-fronts.

Security and privacy are at risk. To apply for an online payday loan, consumers send their personal identification information, Social Security number and bank account and routing number to the lender, sometimes over unsecured web links.

Every online loan involves giving the lender electronic access to your bank account, both to deliver the loan and to withdraw fees and payment. Identity theft and fraud are real risks when consumers disclose key financial information and authorize unknown lenders to access accounts.

Online payday loans can trap borrowers in debt. Many online payday loans have automatic renewal terms, permitting the lender to withdraw the finance charge every payday without the borrower repaying any principal. Consumers who want to pay in full may have to take extra steps to notify those companies to close out the loan.

Tracking down lenders can be hard to do. Online payday lenders may be located off-shore or provide so little information they are hard to locate. They typically claim to make loans under foreign laws or from states with little or no consumer protections. Although Internet payday lenders are subject to the state law where you get the loan, state regulators have a harder time enforcing state laws against virtual lenders than against store-fronts.

File complaints against Internet payday lenders with your state regulator, your state Attorney General, and the Federal Trade Commission. Regardless of where the Internet lender says it is located, it is subject to your state's credit regulations. [/quote]

No one ever mentioned that site to me that I recall. But I do wonder what statute / legal precedent they base that information on? Without something legally backing it up such as a Federal law or Fed court ruling / precedent then it's really only as good as the information posted here. It would never stand up in court, never convince a PDL to accept other amounts of money/stop collections. I wish I could find something that says otherwise, but so far I haven't found anything that would hold up in court.

I must have you confused with someone who asked a similar question. Perhaps you could contact them to see if they can cite legistation to back up the claim?

Consumer Federation of America
1620 I Street, NW - Suite 200
Washington, DC 20006
202-387-6121
[email]cfa@consumerfed.org[/email]

Thanks, sent them an email asking about it, will call them as well either later today or in the morning.

The CFSA supports the premise of thier member companies following the laws and regulations of the states in which they operate. You will not find any information that says the laws of another state dictate the legality of the loan.

Well the website she linked clearly says the state in which they operate in is a moot point, and they are subject to the person's home states credit regulations. And I know some states have it in their PDL laws that even online loans MUST go by their laws and all of that. I'm curious though if there is some federal precent or regulation that I missed that supports the information on that website. I know (and had linked in my other post) there was a fed case that was decided where the choice of law provision could no longer apply on cell phone contracts since the companies were using that as a means to prevent people in different states joining together for class action law suits. No idea how you could apply that to PDL's, but some one might try and make that arguement should one of these make it to a federal court for ruling.

[COLOR=black]From my own research the federal courts are more inclined to side with the consumer’s state laws as long as proof can be shown that the lending company purposely solicited your business in your home state. One case in which this was proven was the case of a Texas consumer who sued a California gambling site. Even though a choice of law provision was part of the contract that the consumer signed the US federal court found that the open access of the web site showed the company intended to draw consumers from other states, or in other words they solicited business outside the state in which they were located. A second case that can be used against the pdl’s is zippomanufacturing vs. zippodotcom in which the Federal court set a sliding scale to determine whether a business located in a state outside of the consumer’s state can be held to the laws of the consumer’s state. The ruling states that if a business merely advertises or provides information, or the information provided is clearly intended for a specific audience in a particular state, the business does not come under the jurisdiction of a consumer who solely views the advertisement or information in another state. But if a business solicits business, accepts business, and continues to transact business with a consumer in another state, the court held that, in fact, the “electronic” business is conducting business in the consumer’s state, and therefore, is subject to the laws and courts of that state.[/COLOR]

Excellent. Thanks tousi. These are the types of facts I have been looking for to support the theory, but until now I had only been able to find the one concerning cell phone contracts. I'll look these up, see what I can make from them and contact the OCCC and see if they can look into this as well.

Also, in my one man campaign in TX I have sent several state reps. links to Washingtons pay day loan laws, demanding similiar protections here in TX as well as harsher penalties for those that violate either the lending laws or more so the collection laws. I doubt it will ever work, but hey why not try. Just too bad I have to compete directly with ACE Cash Express and some others, as well as some of the biggest pawn broker companies in the country. Several of these outfits call TX home and throw tons of money around to keep loopholes open (like the CSO bull----
they use now).

These cases are excellent information. Two years ago when I was in payday loan hell, I sent a copy of the information Ohio gal provided you from the CFSA website to my payday loan lenders along with my revocation of ACH. I received a refund and several stopped contacting me. Two sent my account on to a collection agency. I sent the same info and never heard from them again.

They know they are illegal but count on the ignorance of their clients.

You might be careful send them to information about WA state regs. The elected officials have been attempting to pass a bill or two that will loosen the restrictions that were put in place. The reason behind the move is due to the interenet lenders and the "unexpected" reprecussions of running the legal, licensed lenders out of the state. When they passed the original regulations, the state gave up any control/regulation of the industry and opened the doors up to offshore and indian reservation lenders that have no regard for laws/regulations in lending and collecting.

Really? Please explain more if you don't mind. My understanding in the WA laws from their website is any on-line pay day loan must be licesned with the state and follow state regulations if they offer any loan to any one within the state of WA. The problem there of course is in the enforcement. If the site exsists, people can and will use it even if it's not licensed there, and the website has a disclaimer there stating to be sure and check with the state for a license before taking out a loan. Like I said though, enforcement of any of these is the problem. A state has little to nothing it can do to a company operating in another state and or country, so the PDLs will continue to operate as always, but a consumer would have protection under these types of laws of any forced collection (garnishment etc).

Also, (and this is just my opinion based on what I know about things here in TX and can only assume about other states) that since the regulations in WA, companies operating legally in WA are losing money because they are not able to get away with the rates they are used to charging, plus with the restrictions on the number of loans etc they can't keep people in the debt trap the way they were. Off-shore ones can operate outside the law (but with no recourse if a person defaults) and still scare folks into paying so they are still racking in the cash....so since the competitors of ACE, Check n Go and the other big ones are most likely dumping tons of cash into campaign contributions and lobbiests to loosen the regulations so they can cash in once again. Now I could be wrong, but I wouldn't doubt it one bit that is what is driving any loosening of the regulations. Money talks, these guys have tons of it and aren't afraid to use it to keep the doors open for business as usual.