Wells Fargo Goodwill Letter to remove inquiries didn't work

Don't see why they would need to do a hard pull for an AR. Did you ask them to reclass these as soft pulls if they would not remove?

Should I write a letter again asking for removal, wait for their second response, and then ask for a "reclassification", or should I write the second letter asking for reclassification since they wouldn't remove?

I would just ask for a re-class. You might even consider going a little nut case on them.

is something like this too nice? Should I be stronger?

Wells Fargo Home Mortgage
PO Box 10335
Des Moines, IA 50309


Regarding "so-and-so's" response to my letter dated 12/12/08, I am asking for clarification as to why your company has put ???hard??? inquiries on my credit reports on the following dates:

11/20/07
12/24/07
08/01/08
11/24/08
01/02/09

I requested a Loan Modification on 10/3/08, so I can understand the ???hard??? Inquiry from your company dated 10/21/08 (which I am not disputing). But as I received the Loan Modification Denial letter dated 11/24/08, I would like to know the reasons for the other 5 ???hard??? Credit Inquiries. Each and every time you pull my credit, my FICO is negatively affected. As my loan is an existing account, shouldn???t it show as a ???soft??? inquiry?

I obtained this Home Mortgage on 5/4/07, which is why am not disputing that dates ???hard??? inquiry either.

If you are unable to remove these ???hard??? inquiries, can they instead be properly reclassified as the ???soft??? inquiries that they should be?

Thank you in advance,

Looks good to me

I'll give it a shot, thanks for the advice!

it has been a couple of weeks since I sent the letter, no response yet. But I'll wait another couple of weeks before I send a third letter.

But in regards to my question about their statement of "be advised WFHM is required to report accurate information for all mortgage loans" ... does anyone know if there is such a requirement?

I am just trying to get my ducks in a row for my next letter, in case I need to send one.

Hello smo65d11,

According to Fair Isaac, there is only 1 type of inquiry that counts against your FICO score, and that is an inquiry prompted by a request for new credit. Any inquiries made by a business with whom you already have a credit account do not count towards your score. PM me if you would like the link.

They are probably just being careful and checking to see if you are reporting lates on anything else so they can tag your file for close watching, especially with the huge problems in the real estate market.

chrys

Hi Chrys, thanks and yes please I would like the link you mention.

But I'd like to point out that on all of our credit reports there are 2 (3 on Transunion) sections discribed in relation to inquiries:



Equifax:
Inquiries that display to companies (May Impact your credit score) This section lists companies that requested your credit file. Credit grantors may view these requests when evaluating your credit worthiness. Employment inquiries do not impact your credit score.

Inquiries that do not display to companies (do not impact credit score.) This section included inquiries which display only to you and are not considered when evaluating your credit worthiness.- examples of this inquiry type include a pre-approved offer of credit, insurance , or periodic account review by an existing creditor.)



Experian:
Record of requests for your credit history: We make your credit history available to your current and prospective creditors as allowed by law. Experian may list these inquiries for up to two years so that you will have a record of the companies that accessed your credit information.

Inquiries shared with others: The section below lists all of the companies that have reviewed your credit report as a result of an action you took, such as applying for credit or financing or as a result of a collection. The inquiries in this section are shared with companies that view your credit history.

Inquiries shared only with you:
You may not have initiated the following inquiries, so you may not recognize each source. We report these requests to you only as a record of activities, and we do not include any of these requests on credit reports to others.
We offer credit information about you to those with a permissible purpose, for example to:
other creditors who want to offer you preapproved credit;
an employer who wishes to extend an offer of employment; a potential investor in assessing the risk of a current obligation; Experian Customer Assistance to process a report for you;
Your current creditors to monitor your accounts (date listed may reflect only the most recent request).
These inquiries do not affect your credit score.



Transunion:
Regular Inquiries: The following companies have received your credit report. Their inquiries remain on your credit report for 2 years.

Promotional Inquiries:
The companies listed below received your name, address and othe rlimited information about you so they could make a firm offer of credit or insurance. They did not receive your full credit report. These inquiries are not seen by anyone but you and do not affect your score.

Account Review Inquiries:
The companies listed below obtained information from your consumer report for the purpose of an account review or other business transaction with you. These inquiries are not displayed to anyone but you and will not affect any creditor's decision or any score (except insurance companys may have access to other insurance company inquiries, where permitted by law).

I called both Experian and Transunion and they both said that I HAD to have a letter from Wells Fargo in order for the incorrectly classified Inquiries to be reclassified properly. I just don't understand ... a company screws up, they won't admit it, they won't write a letter to the bureaus, and I am the one punished, because someone else screwed up? How is that right or fair?

At the time a creditor pulls your credit report, they don't have an option whether they want to pull a soft or hard inquriy. That depends on how their sub-code is programmed at the bureaus, which is setup when they first open an account with that bureau. Their sub-code will be programmed to always pull soft, or always pull hard inquiries, but the creditor cannot mix-and-match afterwards. Once their code is setup, from that time forward, all their inquiries will be hard or all their inquiries will be soft.

Now theoretically, Wells Fargo could setup two separate sub-codes at the bureaus -- one that they use to make hard pulls when a customer first applies, and another to use soft pulls during an account review.

so what do I do? I got the link Chrys sent me, and it is exactly as he said above ... I didn't do anything wrong other than be LESS than 30 days late. Yes, it's easy to say "pay your bills on time" ... I am trying to, and I have NOT been over 30 days late. I am hoping that Wells Fargo will respond to my latest letter, but as their customer service in general SUCKS, I don't hold out much hope?

Hi,

Well with those FICO rules it should be easy to go directly to the reporting agencies with proof that you have a pre-existing relationship with this mortgage company, the rule stating it must be a soft pull, and a strong request (demand) to remove the negative inquiry mark immediately and to inform you and the creditor of such change.

chrys

I tried that with all 3 via mail and phone, they said that they cannot change anything without something from the mortgage company.

so basically the wrongdoer refuses to admit the error, and the reporting agencies say they have to have something from the wrongdoer before they can fix anything ... so I am stuck!

What form of proof of pre-existing business relationship did you send the reporting agencies?

they said there was nothing that I could send, that something had to come from the company itself admitting they were wrong.

Should I try and send a copy of my mortgage statement to the 3 bureaus proving that I had an account with them?

That's what I was thinking. You should probably also send a letter to the mortgage company with the relevant Fair Isaac rules and strongly request that they follow proper reporting procedures and correct their error immediately.

That was me, sorry! :roll:

I'm not trying to be a stick in your side, but Fair-Issacs is just a corporation (that happened to develop an empirically derived formula for calculating one's "score" as an indicator of their credit-worthiness). Since they are only a corporation, Fair-Issacs "rules" are not the governing law; rather they are just guidelines as to how their forumula works. You can quote FICO all day, but those are not laws.

Look to the text of the FCRA (Fair Credit Reporting Act), which are the actual set of laws that govern credit reporting. Nowhere in the FCRA does it even distinguish between soft/hard pulls, nor does it regulate when a creditor can/cannot use a hard inquiry. It does however define "permissible purpose" for pulling an inquiry, and "account review" is specifically listed as a permissible purpose.

I wish you luck with Wells Fargo and the bureaus. But since they are not actually violating any applicable laws, I wouldn't hold your breath in getting them to change those inquiries.

okay well thanks for explaining that, I guess many of us lump Fair Issac and the FCRA as the same thing, which they clearly are not. I didn't even realize that it was NOT an FCRA violation until you pointed that out.

I did receive a letter back from my last letter to Wells Fargo, their letter said that "we believe in going the extra mile to delive the highest quality service possible" so basically it was going to take 20 business days for me to receive a "detailed" answer. Which makes me sure it is going to be another "no", along with a litany of reasons why they WONT make that goodwill adjustment I was hoping for.

Fingers Crossed until then though!

Well, I've got two cliches for you: 1) "You attract more bees with honey" and 2) "The squeaky wheel gets the oil."

Keep writing them letters and calling, but be nice about it. You are right to question those inquiries. With my credit cards, their account reviews have always showed up as "soft". Just keep trying to get to the right person "who cares", and just maybe they'll go that extra mile for you. But if you start quoting irrelevant laws or threating to sue them, then they'll start throwing your letters in the garbage.

Hi DebtCruncher,

I said nothing about laws, but mentioned Fair Isaac rules. What are they there for anyway, decoration? Why have any procedures in place at all when they can just be tossed out the window like useless garbage just because some pencil pusher doesn't feel like applying them properly?

As far as the "bees with honey" comment, this person TRIED THAT ALREADY.

So smo65d11, apparently corporate guidelines/rules/procedures aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

chrys

Chrys, looking back a few posts, it seems there is a PM you sent to smo65d11. I'm really not sure what rules you mentioned other than the excerpts in this thread that decribe the difference between inquiry types. Before I can accurately reply, I would like to see the "rules" you're talking about.

Somewhere in my desk at work I have about a 200-page manual, issued by Fair Isaac Corp. To be honest, I've never really read past the first 5 pages. When I go to work tomorrow I'll look and see what it says.

I'll also call my Transunion Rep (his name is Zoom, isn't that a cool name?) and my Experian Rep (her name is Adrienne). I'll ask them what the bureau stance is on the whole issue. Then maybe we can settle this.


PS the only reason I made the "honey" comment is because I have been in situations like this, where my company wasn't actually violating any laws but the customer had valid points. Many times if there is "honey" involved, I will fix a person's credit bureau for them. Where if they scream in my ear and threaten to sue me, then I tell them to go ahead.

Ok smo65d11,

I've thought about it and I am adamant in my advice that you should file a complaint with the FTC against the CRA or CRAs you mention. Include all proofs you have, including your dispute letter, the relevant FICO rules, and the CRA response.

Since it is your FICO that is taking a hit, and that hit is directly against the rules that Fair Isaac states are the reporting rules. If they can't follow these rules, then the FTC needs to make a determination as to the accuracy of the information that Fair Isaac is providing to the public. There's no two ways about it: The CRA is WRONG and MUST correct your report and remove the offending marks immediately, because according to the Fair Credit Reporting Act, you are entitled to ACCURATE information on your credit reports.

Again, to clarify:


from: http ://www. myfico.com/ CreditEducation/ CreditInquiries. aspx
(remove the spaces)

Good luck!

chrys

my update today is that I received a reponse dated March 2, 2009. It was another "no", and this is the main part of what she wrote:

"I would like to take this opportunity to provide you with some background information to ensure that clarity is established. The FCRA outlines when WFHM, as a mortgage loan servicer, has permissible purpose for pulling a consumer credit report.

As explained in my previous response dated 12/16/08, when an account is delinquent and/or a customer contacts us to determine what arrangements are available to bring the loan current, a credit history may be processed.

Your correspondence questioned the reasoning behind inquiries dated 8/1/08, 10/21/08, 11/24/08, and 1/2/09. Each of these credit inquiries were processed either as part of a collection review or a workout process review. Therefore, each inquiry was considered permissible per the FCRA. WFHM cannot remove them or have them reclassified."

so now that I have received my second written "no", should I now file complaints against the 3 credit bureaus? Or against WFHM? As soon as I am able to, I will be refinancing my mortgage and am already in the process of closing my checking account. They have already lost me as a customer forever due to this issue. It just annoys me beyond belief that WFHM can legally get away with this!

Hi,

Ok, this response changes a lot. They specifically mentioned "workout process review", so I went to look that up in Google. On your other post on MyFico, asking the same question, you mention that you were 17 to 29 days, while here you only mentioned over 10 days.

I also discovered this interesting article in The Business Review:
'http://www.bizjournals.com/albany/stories/2002/06/17/focus5.html' - "Lenders must be prepared to act aggressively in loan workout process".

With so many bankruptcies, lenders are being more aggressive in order to protect their interests, so they are making sure that you have paid your property taxes, that you still have your job/income, and that there is nothing showing up that could indicate future trouble, or an impending bankruptcy. The "soft" inquiry is mainly for verification purposes while a "hard" inquiry is for the purposes of obtaining the actual report in order to review the data on it.

So, they apparently *did* do a "hard" inquiry, because of so many late payments and the Loan Modification request, they consider you to now be high-risk. I would make an extra effort to be on time in the future. Your mortgage, like rent, should be the absolutely most important, first priority, bill you have.

Hope this helps,

chrys

I was having to make a choice between making 2 or 3 credit card payments late which can cost between $39-45 per credit card for late fees, or paying the $25 late fee on the wells fargo loan ... I chose the lesser of 2 evils cost wise, but are paying for it with all of these %^$@#@# inquiries! Grrrr!

Wow, that is one heck of a decision to make. I do not envy you. Were you able to get that Loan Modification?

nope, they said that I didn't qualify for one because I was spending more than I was making ... well DUH! That was why I needed the loan modification! This is all just so frustrating ... I can't WAIT to be debt free, it all makes me work that much harder at paying down everything I can.