FYI

Oh, I'm still doing this dance w/ a PDL; they say I'm governed by the law of their State and MY state (where they're all prohibited) says they aren't. I've challenged the PDL to send me something in writing, on company letterhead, WITH valid address and phone number, telling me that they are in fact licensed and legal in my State and that I have to abide by THEIR laws. So far haven't gotten anything, nor do I expect to.

See Below Re: Utah

From: "Jerry Jaramillo" Add Mobile Alert
To: "James
Subject: Re: Payday Loan Law


A payday lending Utah registration enables a payday lender to make
loans to Utah residents.

A payday lender operating in states other than Utah must
register/license in those states to make payday loans in compliance with the statutes
in those states.

From a practical perspective most internet lenders will use a contract
based on the laws of one state, simply because one contract can not be
universally written to accommodate the laws and statues of all 50
states. In any event the contract must be accordance with applicable state
law of the state where the borrower resides.


>>> James
4/23/2008 10:01 AM >>>
Hello Jerry,

I was wondering if a Utah licensed lender, payday lender specifically,
can legally lend to non-Utah residents via the internet on the basis of
a Utah license? In other words, can Utah licensing terms and rates be
exported by a non-bank?

Thank You,
James

James-Let me ask a silly question because I just want to make sure I totally understand. Does this mean that whatever state a internet payday lender is located doesn't matter because they have to abide by the state laws where a person resides?

If anyone takes the time to read an actual license they will find that it specifies the entity only has authority for residents of that state. It doesn't matter if a state accepts out of state licenses. The license by definition is only for RESIDENTS and that fact is clearly stated and repeated when applying for a license.

Edited per TOS - No personal attacks!

That is not true - It would be true if the business was physically located in other states, but they aren't.

Plus, some state's will flat out say that their license does allow for lending to other states.

James - You will be banned if you continue to talk crap about our members. Period.

OK I'm sorry if I asked an inappropriate question-I don't want to start any trouble-I just want to try to find out what my rights are. Sorry again
Reba

Reba - This is not about you. You did NOTHING wrong.

Ask anything you'd like. :D

Reba - What state are you in?

do not aplolgize reba,there are no silly questions and you are more than entitled to know your rights.

I am located in Illinois

Illinois has actually gone after some payday lenders for breaking their laws before . . . .

hello fellow illinoian,goudah should be able to call up our laws.i can tell you that just about every internet pdl will not be licensed.this is because they have to be licensed in illinois because of the strict usury laws.

I don't have any specific responses for IL - But they do require companies to be licensed by IL and to follow IL laws.

How was James "talking crap"? :shock:

James seems to be very knowledgeable and appears to have the members best interest at heart. :?

Half of his words were edited out - Per the TOS. He said some very insulting things about people of this site.

Also, I just looked at a few licenses from a few different states, and not one said the license was only valid on loans to residents of that state.

I called the consumer credit rights #800 for Illinois to ask how the pdl laws work for out of state lenders. The person I spoke was very condesending and really couldn't give a specific answer to my questions-since she really wasn't listening anyway-she said that if they are not licensed in Illinois there is nothing they can do and it doesn't matter where the company is located because they aren't licensed in Illinois then they don't have to follow Illinois law-Does anyone know of someone elso I could contact in Illinois to try and get more specific answers? It was a very discourging conversation-mostly one sided on her part.

That is not true - See this article:

http://wwwc.illinois.gov/PressReleases/ShowPressRelease.cfm?RecNum=6001&SubjectID=1

And the text of it:





FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
May 30, 2007


Internet Payday Lender Fined More Than $230,000 for Unlicensed Lending In Illinois
Payday-Loans-Yes.com issued largest fine in Illinois history against payday lender


CHICAGO ???????? In its ongoing effort to protect consumers from unscrupulous lenders, the Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation (IDFPR) today filed an order against Global Payday Loan, LLC, d/b/a/Payday-Loans-Yes.com, ordering them to stop issuing loans to Illinois residents. IDFPR also fined the firm $234,000 for charging Illinois customers excessive interest rates and ignoring the hard-won consumer protections established in the Payday Loan Reform Act (PLRA).

???????It is striking, even after Governor Blagojevich worked to enact payday loan reforms that protect Illinois consumers, internet loan operations continue to violate the Act, claiming the law doesn????????t apply to them,??????? said Dean Martinez, Secretary of Financial and Professional Regulation.

The PLRA contains several important protections, all of which were ignored by Global Payday Loan, LLC, the Department????????s order alleges. Investigating a consumer complaint brought by J.M. (the complainant????????s full name is being withheld for privacy reasons) who borrowed $300.00 through the company????????s internet website, IDFPR found serous problems with the transaction. First, the loan was written with a six-day term which does not give the borrower sufficient time to repay the loan. Second, the fees on the loan exceeded the $15.50 per $100.00 allowed in Illinois. In fact, the annual percentage rate (apr) on the loan interest rate on the loan was 2,190%. Finally, the company failed to provide the borrower with a statement explaining her rights to initiate an interest free repayment plan and her other consumer rights under the PLRA.

???????We are issuing the largest fine in Illinois history against a payday lender, and hope this sends a message to other national companies that we intend to pursue all violations of Illinois???????? payday loan law,??????? said Gina DeCiani, Acting Director of the Division of Financial Institutions.


The company continued to violate J.M.????????s rights and is still sending her email warnings that her account is ???????seriously delinquent.???????? As of April 1, 2007, J.M. had already paid the lender $360, which is $13.50 more than the company was entitled to collect under the PLRA. In April, J.M. and her employer received several calls demanding additional payment, with Global representatives asserting that the unpaid balance on her loan was $630.00.

???????I have been in the middle of a nightmare, and I will be glad for it to be over. I think that loan companies should have to obey Illinois laws. We have these laws to protect us, and when you are afraid to answer your phone, or that they????????ll call your supervisor, or garnish your wages, that????????s not right,??????? said J.M. ???????This company should have to follow the rules no matter where their company is based. These people are sharks, and I don????????t owe them any more money, and don????????t deserve to be harassed by them. That????????s why I filed the complaint with the State of Illinois.???????

The order invokes the largest fines ever imposed on a payday lender. The total fine of $234,000 is apportioned as follows: 1) $1,000 per day for acting as a payday lender without a license, for a total fine of $210,000; 2)$1,000 for making a payday loan with a term of less than 13 days; 3) $1,000 for assessing finance charges in excess of $15.50 per $100 loaned; 4) $1,000 for failing to verify that a payday loan was permissible under the PLRA; 5) $1,000 for failing to provide a consumer with notice of the right to a repayment plan; 6) $10,000 for interfering with the Division????????s authority to examine a lender????????s books, records, and loan documents; and, 7) $10,000 for engaging in unfair, deceptive, and fraudulent practices in collecting a payday loan.

IDFPR????????s order also requires the lender to provide documents showing whether it has made loans to any other Illinois consumers. IDFPR advises consumers to exercise extreme caution if they choose to take out a loan through the internet. At the very least, consumers should try to determine whether the lender is licensed to make loans in Illinois. If they feel they have been victimized by an internet lender, they should contact IDFPR to file a complaint.

A copy of the Cease and Desist order is available at www.IDFPR.com.

Contact the Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation.

1. Are the laws of your drivers license written on the license itself...or is there an application with a bit more detail?
2. Contact David Gee and the NM Department of Banking 505-476-4692. Since you post the NM license, why not give him a call and ask for yourself.
3. I can't believe you people say I "talk crap".

Edited per TOS - No personal attacks!

Here is the question...Is a New Mexico License valid for residents of other states per New Mexico law?

Again...David Gee, State of NM, 505-476-4692

Edited per TOS - No personal attacks

Edited per TOS - No personal attacks

I have not said the license is valid for residents of other states - Only that in certain state's the businesses are allowed to use other state's licenses, as long as they are not physically located there.

I just called the number posted above, asking specifically this "For an internet based business without a physical location in a certain state, that does business only over the internet, and that state says the business only needs to be licensed in another state because their laws only apply to businesses physically located in that state, is the business allowed to use it's NM license to lend?"

Answer: Yes, as long as they have no physical locations in the other state. The business is then deemed to not be trasacting business in the other state, the transaction is deemed to have occured in NM.

And the licenses posted above were in response to your comment:

Quote:

Follow the conversation with Ryan Walsh from the PA DOB. This should eliminate any doubt as to whether a license will actually hold up across state lines.

-James



Hi Ryan,

Are internet payday loans, if licensed in another state, legal in Pennsylvania? If so, are the rates of the other states enforceable? I have a substantial amount of people asking me this from my site, and want to provide the correct answer.

Thank You,
James

James,

Please click on the link below to view an interpretive letter on the subject. If you have any additional question let me know.

banking.state.pa.us /banking/lib/banking/laws_and _regulations/062405.pdf

Ryan M. Walsh | Enforcement Administrator

17 North Second Street, 13th Floor | Hbg PA 17101
Phone: 717.772.3889 | Fax: 717.787.8773
rywalsh (@) state.pa.us | banking.state.pa.us

Hi Ryan,

Thanks. I understand the position. Here is my next question...if an out of state license defines itself as valid for residents of its state only, can it still be used across state lines. Please see my copied email below with the State of Utah. Note, the email is from the address I write with.

Thanks,
James

From: "Jerry Jaramillo" Add Mobile Alert
To: "James Rogersen"
Subject: Re: Payday Loan Law


A payday lending Utah registration enables a payday lender to make
loans to Utah residents.

A payday lender operating in states other than Utah must

register/license in those states to make payday loans in compliance with the statutes
in those states.

From a practical perspective most internet lenders will use a contract
based on the laws of one state, simply because one contract can not be

universally written to accommodate the laws and statues of all 50
states. In any event the
contract must be accordance with applicable state
law of the state where the borrower resides.


>>> James Rogersen 4/23/2008 10:01 AM >>>

Hello Jerry,

I was wondering if a Utah licensed lender, payday lender specifically,
can legally lend to non-Utah residents via the internet on the basis of

a Utah license? In other words, can Utah licensing terms and rates be
exported by a non-bank?


Thank You,
James Rogersen

James,

The Department would likely take exception to an entity not following the licensed home state laws and regulations.

The above should not be considered a formal legal opinion of the Department of Banking. The above information is based on the facts as provided and may change given a change in the facts.


Ryan M. Walsh | Enforcement Administrator

17 North Second Street, 13th Floor | Hbg PA 17101
Phone: 717.772.3889 | Fax: 717.787.8773
rywalsh (@) state.pa.us | banking.state.pa.us
The information transmitted is intended for the person or entity to which it is addressed. Review, transmission, dissemination or other use by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.

That supports what I am saying - I'm not saying this applies to every state! Only certain states.

A payday lending Utah registration enables a payday lender to make loans to Utah residents.

That is stated above. That is the scope of a license. It is not valid for non-Utah residents. I'll find the NM email and post the same. Fyi, a NM license is meaningless anyway because they don't follow the rate change

And the companies do follow their home state's laws and regulations.

I'm not talking about Utah! Again, I'm only talking about certain states.

I agree that some state's licenses are only valid for that state - But not all of them.

The licenses I posted were not saying that those licenses are valid for other states - They were there to show that it says nothing on the license itself, as you said it would in your earlier post.

Another thing to mention - Most state laws have not caught up with the internet. Most of the laws apply only to businesses physically located in that state, because the laws were made before business over the internet was a big thing.

BTW - If you were to click on the link the PA Dept of Banking told James to look at, it would say that internet businesses without a physical location in PA would need to be licensed in their home state, and follow the laws of that state.

Also, it says "The Department would likely take exception to an entity not following the licensed home state laws and regulations. " This doesn't say it's illegal, it says the would LIKELY take an expection, if they were not following the state's rules and regulations. Most of the companies I'm talking about do follow the laws of those states to the T.

Exactly. That is why there is no precedent to encourage anyone to follow the laws of an out of state lender. You know as well as I do that it would never hold up in a court of law. Federal law states that only Fed and State Institutions can export rates. That is why PDLs used to have their loans underwritten for a fee by the likes of County bank, Rehobeth Beach, DE. When the FDIC came down on the banks, this ridiculous argument was born. PDLs know that the criteria of "Public Interest" must be met for that to happen.

That, being legal action.

I wouldn't say it wouldn't hold up in court. If the business can show proof, and they could, that the state department in charge of regulating that industry told them they could use another state's license and follow those laws because their state laws only applied to businesses located there, I'd think they would have a good argument for winning. I think that PA should change that. If they did change it, then they would have no way of winning. But as is, the business can do their due dilligence, and still be punished? That isn't right.

Also, their argument is that they aren't exporting anything. They claim the transaction is occuring in their state. The people are going to them. They aren't advertising in these states. And that is a legal question that has still not clearly been decided by the courts. I believe the consumer would win, as they have in similar cases, but until a payday lender is actually taken to court and loses, it's still up in the air what the courts would do. The payday lenders have a lot of money, and lots of lobbyists. You can't assume the courts would take the position you are saying they will. You never know what could happen.

I've noticed that soem payday lender's will not offer PDL's in NC becuase they are prohibited. Once you apply on a website that "matches" you with a lender and the lender tells you they can't lend in your state you end up receiving nunmerous e-mails from other PDL companies. Would this be considered a solicitation?

An email would be considered solicitation, yes.

The cast majority of all internet based lenders do not follow the laws of the individual states.

I'd argue venue, as well, because Adwords advertising in the PDL industry is all geographically targeted. For example, to not advertise in one state, such as GA, the must specifically target the individual states which would mean the transaction would be from the state of the borrower. In essence, the online lender creating their virtual "storefront" in the state (on the screen) of the borrower. Again, we both know there is no concrete law in place and interpretation is just that. I think you have good arguments but I don't feel you acknowledge other arguments. I'm sorry for the cheesehead comment...that was undeserved. What I do believe, however, is that both you and I possess expertise in this area that is quite valuable. There are enough holes in the internet lenders business models that I feel comfortable they have no leg to stand on. The people in this forum take a great deal of time to learn, and many come back to help. I have never insulted a member here nor will I (again..sorry for the cheesehead comment). Our arguments will never end as neither of us truly has a defined law behind us to end this. However, I advise everyone here to at least make sure with the state of the licensee that they are following their laws and, under the terms of their license, have a right to count you as a resident under its' jurisdiction.

Will you at least admit you like the idea of me showing up on Google right below them when their name is searched for?

I'd like to see you help take them all down!!!!!

I do acknowledge other arguments - What I do is always err on the side of caution. If there is any possibility that the loan could be considered legal in a court, I would treat that loan as legal. I don't want anyone to get any advice from this site that could potentially get them into more trouble. So I take a more conservative approach to dealing with these companies, because as you say nothing is concrete.

Thing is, when most people look for a payday loan, they aren't searching for a specific company. So if your site came up for just payday loan on google, then I'd applaud you. But by the time someone is google searching for the specific company, they almost always already have a loan with them.

Very little chance to go after such a broad keyword. So, I want the company to see it. I want their customers who have not had the fortune of finding this site to have a mouthpiece and a gateway to here...hence the link to dcc. I want to post the names of their business colleagues. When someone searches for their names, they all link. But i will go after the smaller terms, like no fax payday loan, bad credit loan. In fact, I'm not that sympathetic to someone searching for a payday loan by that term. Honestly, that would indicate they have some knowledge of what they're getting into. Those pdls that target "get out of debt", however, are a different story. I've done the research on usapaydayloan and, now that I have that name locked up, can tell the world to visit the at 651 High Street Suite 203 Burlington NJ 08016. Their landlord is Lord, Worrell and Richter who will also get an email about what their tenant does. Their processor is ACH Commerce (Moneygram). their bank is Philadelphia Private bank out of Delaware. is this at least getting a little funny?

USFastCash solicisted(where's the spell check?)me...I still have their email. I did not search them out. I considered their offer because I could not get EdollarsDirect to respond to my phone calls or faxes...figured I would pay them off then pay off USFastCash. Doesn't happen that way.
I'm in NC where pdl lenders are prohibited. I understand neither these pdl are licensed.

I'm wondering if anyone has considered a class action suit...with 111862 members its something to consider.

sky in NC

I'd be there with you, I'm in NC too!

Actually...is it legal to give out the owner's info?

I don't think anyone would be giving out anyone's personal information without consent. If you are referring to the comment on a class action suit. I understand it takes a lawyer from each state to put one together anyway...

I'd just like to see al PDL lenders abide by the appropriate laws of each state. I've been taken for so much money I can't see straight.