Ethical Question

A very good question.Although I really can't comment from personal experience,there is the case of the irate consumer in just about every industry.

I think that the moral obligation is to pay back what was borrowed and the going interest rate for the state that you live in. But I believe that if you go into the loan without knowing that you are over paying, according to the laws of you state that a refund should be given. Now this is the sticky area - most of the consumers who use internet pdls are in a panic and need money fast. They rarely read the information that is in the fine print - I know that I didn't and they are not aware of the laws. Some think that the ipdls are following the same laws that the many many storefront pdls adhere to, so therefore are trusting the same treatment from the ipdls. Unfortunately many times this is not the case and we as consumers learn a horrible financial lesson.
For me it was total financial ruin filing for bankrupcy. I would love to get the money that is owed to me, but I think that a PIF is as close as any of us should hope for. Hindsight is 20/20 and I know that getting a refund is a good thing - I think that getting out from under the ipdls'thumb and becoming educated in the laws of lending per state, educating others as to the pdl vicious circle, and trying to close down the notoriously scummy ipdls is more important than trying to get them to admit that they are illegal and refund what has been taken. Just my 2 cents worth.

But if your state's laws allow the pdl to use other states laws to calculate the interest rate, so legally speaking you wouldn't be entitled to the refund, is it morally wrong to go and try to get one?

goudah,

That is a very interesting question. Fortunately, I live in a state where there are laws regarding payday lenders and this kind of thing. I think if you paid something like $1500 on a $300 loan then yes a refund is entitled to the consumer. I'm not sure which state would allow a pdl to use another state's laws and interest rates. There might be a couple out there. Hmm.... this is a thought provoking question.

I can't decide . . . That's why I posted. I want to hear others thoughts and opinions on this.

On one hand, over paying such a gross amount seems to defend a refund, but accusing any company of breaking a law when calcualting interest when they haven't just doesn't seem right either.

I can't imagine a company who isn't breaking any laws just giving someone a refund to get them off their backs. If they really do this, I have a cc that I have paid 10 times the amount, and I would love a refund!!..KAren

Goudah, Here is my response to your question. In many states it is totally against the law for these companies to do business. They break these laws just like in WV. This type of interest in my opinion should be totally OUTLAWED!!!! If someone has overpaid by that much they should get a refund because it should have never been allowed in the first place. The government has cracked down for the military and I say YAH to that one but something should be done for us ordinary consumers also. Just my thoughts. KYSIDE38

Even if it's not against the law in their state? I agree that it's a ridiculous amount of interest and shouldn't be charged, but we fight them because they do break the law. If we are requesting refunds from companies that do not legally owe us refunds, then are we skirting the very laws that we are trying to make these companies uphold?

I wonder if anybody has encountered that.

The legality of an issue determines neither its ethics nor its morality. PDLs are characterized as predatory lending for a reason.

I 100% agree with pdl's being predatory lenders.

So Morningstar, do you think it's ethical if a company is acting within the laws to demand a refund?

I'm torn because logically you should be entitled to a refund because of the ridiculous interest, but if the company is acting fully within the laws I kinda feel that it's unfair to have someone go back on thier contract. I fully agree that the contract is a moot point when the pdl is breaking your states laws. But if the contract is within the states laws the company did nothing legally wrong.

And yes, it has happened. I believe the company caved and refunded the money because either they are nice are realized that they'd already made a chunk of change from the borrower, or because they didn't want to deal with the headache.

This is possible, I know from personal experience. One of my pdl's I had borrowed $200. I'd only paid back $178 when my checking account was frozen. I called the company and they told me I could only pay by checking account. I finally got through to the controller of the company, and when I told her that I would'nt be able to pay with a checking account she told me she would just mark me PIF. I didn't even ask, and I was willing to pay the rest I owed on it.

These places have such a huge profit percentage that they can afford to not be difficult with people sometimes.

I just feel that since we are trying to hold these places to the law that we should also follow the laws, or else personally I would feel slightly hypocritical. To accuse a company of breaking a law that doesn't apply to them to get them to give you a refund is borderline extortion in my opinion, regardless of the fact that any sane person would agree that they were grossly overpaid.

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OK then, did you actually break the law? Funny thing how it works sometimes, for example, if Bill Clinton really did not consider special time with Lewinsky to be ****(****ual relations), then he did not commit perjury (if he did, and he just found a work-around, then it would have been perjury).

Keep in mind that actions can be legal and ethical, but not moral. An action may also be moral, legal, but not ethical. And so on, and so on...

If the issue is causing lost sleep, I would give the money to charity. I wouldn't give it back, knowing the damage these businesses inflict on communities, but if it really bothered me, I wouldn't keep it, either.

[color=Red]****Adult term removed - Jason[/color]

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I hate to say it, but I agree with Morningstar(usually too flippant for me), but I do agree if you are that distressed about it, give the money to charity. Don't lose sleep over it.

I agree you wouldn't be breaking the laws, and if in fact you weren't aware that the laws you were accusing the pdl of breaking weren't the right laws, then I don't beleive you were doing anything wrong.

But what about then going and telling others how you got the refund, and encouraging them to do the same thing to get a refund?

Does anyone think that is right?

I think it all boils down to what each individuals feel is right or wrong. This is a public board.So if people take the information and apply it to their own matter,then that is their decision. I am highly against pdls as they are preying on people's minor problems and ruining these people.

I think there needs to be more options for people in the poorer risk section of credit to borrow from. Sure charge a little more interest but not what pdls charge.

So do you think it's okay for someone to use laws they know don't apply to their situation to try and get a refund from a pdl?

It could be considered as being illegal,yet those types of loans could also be considered as illegal.

In my opinion if their business is licensed and legal in all aspects and their collections is legal,then I would think that alleged debtor is not entitled to a refund.
I would still apply pressure to that company using the legal public complaint routes to get a paid in full letter and chalk the rest of it to a painful learning experience.

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On another point, I don't agree with people taking out a bunch of payday loans when they know they intentionally won't pay them back or close their checking account. For most of us here, this was a long hard cycle and we had to get out or sink. When I defaulted on my loans, I had been in that cycle for over two years. It was killing me and my family financially. Not to mention the shame I felt. It was right before that that I found this board. I closed my checking account after I entered into debt consolidation with T & C. I closed it at their urging so my account would not go into the negative. Now, I only dealt with internet lenders, no storefront ones. I felt like I was doing the right thing by paying them back through T & C. I've never been so harassed, treated like dirt, threatened, etc in all of my life. It's not like I took the money and ran with it. I had been paying finance fees and roll over charges for months. I had overpaid most of these and the ones that I did not, I paid them back what I owed them per my state laws. But this was only with agreement with them. Most did give me a PIF letter to avoid further trouble since they were doing business in my state illegally. I did get a refund from three that I had overpaid by thousands but I settle for way less than that. Two don't want to mark my account PIF and I'm still battling them over a year later. One turned me over to an affiliate of Bass & Associates and that was a real joy to deal with. They just sent me a PIF letter after battling with them for over a year but on that one I am not going to stop until I get a refund. When I first came here, a lot of us were in the dark on how to approach this. It was a lot of trial and error but it was nothing unethical.

Right, but your state has clear laws on pdl's. The pdl's you were dealing with were breaking those laws.

If they hadn't been breaking any laws, don't you think you would've handled things differently?

I would have to say yes to that..... Is this something that you are dealing with yourself?

No, I'm not personally dealing with it, but it has come up due to some things I've found out lately.

It's pretty much that someone is suggesting, helping, and encouraging others to do the same things they did, knowing that the laws don't support it.

That concerns me for two reasons.

First, that door will only be open for so long. When the PDL company or companies lose a certain amount of money, they will get wise to it, and turn off the tap.

Second, if the information is being provided on this board is inaccurate, it could serve to discredit the DCC community.

Goodah, on that I have to agree with you. It seems lately like the big focus is on getting the refund. This makes me very uncomfortable in that the most important thing that I learned when I first came to this forum was that I needed to learn the law in my state and the state where the pdls are located. What is and is not legal, who to send complaints to, and to close my account at all costs. Then the next was to deal with the pdls and make sure that I was in control not the pdls. I was comfotable with the the thought of running the pdls out of business - legally. I tried for a while to get the money that I over paid to the ipdls, but I only succeeded in having 2 refund me and that was not a quarter of what I over paid. But I feel that if we continue to register complaints to the proper government agencies that this is the way to go. I hate this take the money and run attitude and I think that it sends the wrong message to nubies coming on board, it is not that easy to get the refunds and I have a feeling that it is going to get tougher and many will be disappointed in the outcome.

I've noticed that as well, Goudah - a large movement of newcomers trying to get refunds from the PDL's. I never got a refund myself, because I was just happy to be done with the PDL's, but I didn't overpay in a large amount, either.

These companies are difficult to deal with, and the laws vary so much from state to state, that getting a refund is not only difficult, it may be downright impossible. When one person says they got a refund of X amount from a certain company, it seems many others hop on the bandwagon and try to do the same with other companies. It's not a one size fits all situation - what works with one company will not work with another. And I would hate to see someone get caught up in a situation where they are accused of extortion in an attempt to get a refund - especially if they are not legally due one.

What is wrong with somebody trying to get a refund? You don't know if you don't try. If the company isn't licensed and you have overpaid, seek a refund if you are successful great, if not, well you're not. Nobody guarantees another will get a refund.

Britney - there is nothing wrong with trying to get a refund, and especialy if you have overpaid, but lately the impression that I am getting is more like demand a refund and you will get it. You and I both know that this is sometimes next to impossible and I think sets up a feeling of failure. Don't get me wrong- I could use every penny of what I overpaid just like everyone else, but realistically very few of the pdls are willing to refund. I am just glad that I found this forum and learned from everyone elses wisdom one that I was not alone and two how to take back my life. For this I am very grateful even though it was a very expensive lesson.

I think if you demand a refund from a company by saying they are breaking a law when you know that they are not, you are as bad as the companies that call debtors and threaten criminal prosecution (which we all know is illegal).
My feeling is, if you tell the company that you believe you have overpaid by a certain amount, have documentation supporting your claim, and request a refund, you are well within your rights. If the company refuses to give you a refund, that is their right, as they aren't breaking any laws (per goodah's original question). You do have the right to contact an attorney or your state AG's office and see if recourse is available there.
I think the most we all hope for is a company either willing to work with us with a reasonable payment plan or a PIF letter.
I've received a refund from DMS Marketing/LTS Management (Premier Processing Group) and two iPDL companies have been forced to cease and desist contacting me due to illegal means of collections. All results were achieved by researching the law and working w/ the Ohio AG.

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all of these companies are related in one way or another but their common link (or hidden ownership) is that they are predatory lenders and prey on the working poor, whethere they are "legal" or not I think every consumer that has been ripped off should try and get as much out of these companies they can and if that means a refund that might not be warranted so be it. Most likely any particular company will rip off the next person so why not stick it to them when you can for the good of all people taken by these companies

Yes I do. BECAUSE, there is only 1 ipdl out there that is ACTUALLY licensed and acting within the LAWS and that is CashNetUSA. And no, I don't know that it is next to impossible to get a refund, all one can do is try. And if the ipdl is breaking the laws, the YES point that out to them and file your complaints. People are starting to get too lax with these ipdls. I like the days when people had the balls to stand up for their rights and not run and hide.

SueBee is right, you have to be carefull when you "demand" something, like a refund. If you word things just so, you don't want to get caught up in extortion. I know one member almost got into trouble by wording something they shouldn't have. I'm like Suebee, I was so happy to be rid of the stupid things!! In cases where they are breaking the law, they should be held accountable. But if they aren't breaking the law,then what? My pdl was store front, and they weren't breaking the law, so there I was. Personally, I wish they were all shut down. But in a world where there is need,low income,emergencies, I don't think that will happen..Karen

There are more then 1 ipdl that follows the laws. When I went through my mess I had 8 ipdl's, and 4 of them were legally licensed in my state and followed all my state laws. To say there is only 1 legal ipdl out there is an understatement.

Goudah, I agree with you to a point!!!! I have worked very very very hard on payday loans. I almost have to consider myself a professional in this area. The trend that I do not like on this forum lately has been people not sending in complaints. They want to threaten these companies with the Attorney Generals. Do not threaten do it. I agree with Irish they are the only people who can help. I know a lot of people have insulted my state on this forums but I am so proud of the actions my Attorney General has taken. He has got back thousands of dollars in refunds for consumers in this state. He says other states are looking at this issue closely. So if they dont get the complaints what can they do? I never felt guilty about getting refunds I overpaid by THOUSANDS of dollars I will never recover. It is extremly difficult. Even in my state there are lawsuits pending against these companies. Ordinary consumers dont have the money to hire lawyers for this or they wouldnt have needed a payday loan in the first place. These are just my thoughts. KYSIDE38

Yeah, the laws in those states will never change unless the AG's office and other authorities are made aware of the situation. Filing complaints should be one of the first steps in dealing with a pdl.

Well, I have done the research on my state regarding these ipdls, and it isn't an understatement to state that only 1 ipdl is licensed to lend there and operates according the state laws. I don't post any info unless I've done the research to back it up.

But you didn't put in your post that you were only referring to your state.
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Yes I am hiding behind the ???????GUEST???????. I think that this site is out of control.. When I first came here I was ???????guided??????? and helped but never told that I should demand refunds or stop paying what I legally owed.. Now that????????s all I read STOP paying they are not legal in your state and on and on..
How about back to where it was, advice and guidance to help people get control???????
I understand why many have left this site.. I am going to I am not looking for all the Please stay that is the other reason I a posting under guest.. The site that was once a helpful tool has become a dangerous tool.. I read one post that said??????? Give phony info get the money and close the acct... That is fraud.. I don????????t care if they are legal 2 wrongs do not make it right???????
Take care, to all..

I agree . . . . That's why posts like these have been started. I fully agree that people shouldn't be told to stop paying or demand refunds. The only thing I recommend to almost everyone is to close their bank account, because that is the only way to gain control. But that is only the first step. If someone legally owes then I tell them they need to set up payment plans.

The "I'm owed refund" attitude is getting out of control. Very few states have laws that help the consumers, and only people in those states have a case to plead for a refund.

People going into this attempting to defraud a pdl should be arrested! We are fighting them because we have all paid 3 or 4 times what we borrowed.

I agree with your post above, Goudah. I don't think you should demand a refund if you still legally owe the PDL money. If they are operating illegally, have overcharged you and you have overpaid according to your state law, then yes, you should ask for a refund. However, some of these companies will be very difficult to get a refund from - like Rt. 66. I have yet to see anyone post that they've received a refund from them. In a case like that, filing a complaint with your state's Attorney General and trying to get a refund that way might work - but again, I haven't seen anyone say they've received a refund from Rt. 66, even with their AG's help. They've only succeeded in getting the harrassing phone calls to stop.

I, too, have advised people to close their bank accounts, because that's the only way to regain control of your money so you can work on either paying these PDL companies off, or get them to stop taking money when you have already overpaid them.

"Guest" - I'm sorry you're leaving. I don't know who you are, since you chose to remain anonymous, but I'm sure you were once a member with much to contribute. We appreciate your help in the past, and wish you well.

Hello everyone. This is my first post, so forgive me if I ramble, as I'm a bit long winded. I've really enjoyed the debate about the ethics of requesting/demanding a refund from a company not violating any real laws. Everyone had some pretty strong and intelligent opinions. I just wanted to point out one thing that I didn't see mentioned, and please correct me if someone else touched on this.

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You didn't ramble at all . . . . Very well said. Personally, I don't think it's right to lie to a company to give you a refund, which is why I asked this question. I haven't seen anyone else touch on this either . . . .

But arugements could be made for both sides. It's a sticky issue that hasn't really been brought up before.

I am in agreement board is at a turning point where bad advice can come back and bite us very hard! I always try to research before I answer someone unless I am certain that is what I want to say. I am weak on pdls but I do recognize this change you have discussed. If we as mods,debt samaritans,or even registered members want to keep this board the great place it is,we will have to try to stop this trend.

I agree with you guys. I am a HR rep who deals with many many many (!!!) garnishments weekly. I know the ins and outs and nuances of writs like nothing else. So..When it comes to garnishment questions,(or payroll and benefits) I can answer those completely. Pretty much anything else, all I can do is give support.

Finsfan, you know I have said this many times, I wish the "old timers" would come back. :(

I agree with Steelers when she said complaints are getting lax. That is one of the strongest arguments that we can make when you are dealing with an unlicensed payday lender in your state. Especially if you have overpaid them per your state laws. I understand goudah's original question. I do take offense when people bad mouth this board. I came here when we were first discovering how to deal with ipdl's. We really relied on each other for advice, guidance, and support. I'm still friends with these people today. There is nothing wrong with standing up for yourself. You have to know the laws in your state to back it up. We went through a time on this board when people wanted us to do the work and research for them. We don't mind sharing what we've learned but we were not able to type the letters for them. We didn't have templates to go off of at the time so we learned by trial and error. Then someone great like Polly comes along and sheds new light on the subject for us. I for one have learned a lot from Polly. Have I been demanding in some of my letters? You bet your butt when I've been threatened with every illegal tactic known to man. I was getting demanding with Sonic toward the end because they were such butt heads to deal with. I really think it depends on the person's circumstances, state laws, what they've paid etc.