Recieved summons, but never answered debt validation

Sounds a little fishy to me, but it could be legitimate. I'm no expert in VA civil procedure. Every place I've ever lived, a summons had to come directly from the court. First thing to do here is to contact the court and find out if there's a suit filed against you. If there is, then you damn sure want to be there for it. Check on that, then get back to us, please.

VA Method of Service from:

http://www.serve-em.com/servicemap.html

The thing that makes me wonder is having the mini-Miranda on the paper. That usually only apears on something originating in-house at a CA.

Regardless, the OP needs to contact the court immediately.

I will contact the court about this. If this case does exist which I have a feeling it does, can I have it thrown out on the basis that they did not serve this correctly by simply sticking it in my mail box or the fact that they did not validate the debt properly?

Maybe. You could also defend it on grounds that your request for validation went unanswered.

What do you think my chances of getting it dismissed based on the fact they never validated? I mean they never proved that I owe the debt.

If they won't give you validation before suing, then you ask for it in discovery. The law states that you are entitled to have them validate the debt before you pay it. If they can't prove that you owe it, I don't see the judge making you pay it.

Also I have a complaint that one of the collectors from this law firm called me at work and when I answered they told me " I told you we would get you are you going to take us serious now? If you don't make arrangements, next we are coming for your check. "

Now this is for a medical bill my wife had that I did not sign any papers for. They never provided copies of papers that me or my wife signed agreeing to this debt. Also Virginia is not a community property state. They can not come after my income for my wife's debt.

What is discovery? I did notice on the summons that " To dispute this claim you must appear on the return date for the judge to set a trial date. " How does that work? So I show up on the return date and I can't ask for a dismissal then?

Are you specifically named in the suit or your wife or both? How old is the debt? Discovery is a fact finding process where you can request documentation of the debt from the plaintiff. It is a 2 way street though. They will likely serve you with Discovery as well if it goes that far. Anything you provide to them may make their case, so it is best to limit anything you can. It's their job to make their own case not yours.

My wife and myself are named. They sent me a letter saying I had 30 days to dispute the debt. Is that the discovery process? Because I did send them the validation letter within the 30 days to dispute.

They got my name from the hospital from when my son was born. This bill is from prior medical treatment. I was not with my wife at the time of admission to the hospital by her pcp nor did I sign any papers.

The 30 days to dispute is known as the "mini-miranda" which is a fdcpa requirement that must be inserted in the initial communication letter from a debt collector. It also must state that "This is from a debt collector any and all information obtained will be used for that purpose".

When you say you were not with your wife at the time of admission do you mean not married or not present? Was she covered on your insurance policy? Medical debts are considered debts of necessity and in most states, the husband and wife are equally responsible.

Start researching VA's Civil Practices and Remedies (RCP) to see how to respond to the complaint. Google Discovery and you should be able to find plenty of examples out there. Just make sure that you are using the correct format outlined in the link below. If you feel that you can't do this on your own, then I would suggest you try to find a NACA attorney ion your area www.naca.net

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+TOC0800100

We were married and uninsured. I was not present and did not sign any papers stating I take responsibility for the debt.

Her pcp admitted her under his care to the local hospital. Would that apply as necessity?

You really should consult with an attorney who handles consumer credit issues, rather than rely upon non-attorneys in an internet chat room for legal advice.

You can get an attorney referral from your local county bar association.

Davidw, you should really chill out! Most people that come to this site can't afford an attorney. There is a lot of good advice from the ones that try to help on this site. Most are speaking from past experience which is as important as what is found in most law books.

applause applause guest.davidw was on here last night on several posts doing the same thing.thank you for putting him in his place.

While I appreciate that a licensed practicing attorney has taken interest in our forum, I was hoping for something more substantial than parrotings of "Make them prove it". Lawyer want a cracker?

Hey Paul, he was starting to sound like a tv commercial for the atty industry. I didn't like his comments towards others that try to help on this site. IMO, "if you haven't walked the walk, then don't talk the talk". Most everyone that gives advice on this site has "walked the walk" when dealing with CA's, so they have earned the right to "talk the talk" or share their experiences with others. This includes yourself, nascar, unclewulf and many others.

Update on this. Went to court for second time. The company did send a bill before court to me however it was more than what they are suing me for AND it didn't have any signatures by us stating we would pay. It's a computer print off.

Now the judge has schedules a trial in which the collector has to send me a bill of particulars and I have to file a defense with the clerk of court and the collector within 10 days of that..... Not sure what to say. I told the judge they did not validate and he blew me off stating he is going to schedule it for trial.

I feel like none of this is fair as the judge is helping them violate my FDCPA rights. Also I don't want to go into details as im afraid the collector will somehow show up with the signed documents and validate the debt at the court case. Just in time to get the judgement. Not fair. As I would of never let it get to a judgement point IF they had validated the debt.

Corriewf, maybe skydiver can assist you with this.

did someone call me??

lmao

well, the first thing that jumps out at me is the fact that you cannot be named on a summons for someone else's debt. you made no promise of yourself to pay, you did not sign anything, and you do not live in a community property state. As far as i can tell at that point, it is not your responsibility and therefore they should not be able to name you as a defendant in such a case.

Also, be careful about the laws--some debts are not considered "consumer debts" and medical care may be one of those. as such, some laws may not apply to this debt.

OK, the important thing right now is to stick to your guns about validation. I have been to the hospital a TON of times as a patient, and i recall that they ALWAYS had me sign a promise to pay/authorization to treat form. That signature is the only "contract" so to speak that a medical provider has that you will pay the bill. if they do not have it, then i dont see how this would be any different than any other debt that cannot be validated.

The next thing that will happen is that the plaintiff will submit the bill of particulars. This is basically a collection of statements that the plaintiff claims about this case. For example, they may say something like this:

1. On or about 1 January, 2009, defendant visited the emergency room at _____ hospital for treatment.

2. At that time, defendant was treated for _____. Defendant signed an authorization for treatment and a promise to pay at that time.

3. Defendant's visit resulted in a total balance of $____.__ which as of now remains unpaid.


They will make statements to describe their side of this claim. you will have to answer those statements. This is where the plaintiff gets to say "this is what happened" and the defendant gets to say one of the three things:

---yes, that happened.
---no, it didnt happen.
---I cant say for certain if it happened or not, I dont have enough information.

Well, thats pretty simplified, but you get the basic idea. Once they submit that, you will have the 10 days to answer it. if you like, you can post back here when you get that and let us know what it says...

Thank you Skydivr! I never signed anything. My wife states that she doesn't remember signing anything. She did not go in through the ER and was admitted by her doctor. This is where the confusion lays. The doctor that was caring for my wife during her stay was paid in full. So we believe that there is no liability on our behalf unless they provide a document where either one of us signed. When I asked the lawyer outside the courtroom to please send us that, he said it is not required for validation.

I believe this debt if valid is borderline Doctrine of Necessities so I will treat it as such if it is validated.

Now if they send a bill of particulars showing my wife has signed a contract, then I really don't have a leg to stand on. But the horrible thing is that if they had provided that BEFORE when I asked for validation, I would of made payment arrangements instead of this going to court.

If they don't provide a signed contract, I don't know how they have a leg to stand on.

if they do not provide a signed contract, then you need to fight it all the way. They may also try another debt lawyer's trick--they may produce a "sworn affidavit" from someone who works for the debt collector, claiming that that person has specific personal knowledge of this debt being legitimate. be careful here--ANYTHING that does not have your wife's signature on it is NOT proof that she agreed to pay anything. If they try the "affidavit" crap, you need to object to it, because it is hearsay and nothing more. if you object to it as hearsay, and request that the plaintiff produce this person in court so that you wont' be denied your right to question this "witness", then it is up to them to either do so or withdraw their claim that this affidavit proves anything.

Also, keep this in mind, the fact that your family doctor was paid in full does not prove anything. your doctor treated her, but he did so at their hospital, so it is customary for the doctor and the hospital both to charge you. For example, she was admitted, and the hospital bill would include the room charges, and so on--the doctor's bill would not because he is not the hospital. you COULD, however, produce a statement from the doctor to show that you were billed for this incident, and that you paid the bill in full. it may show the judge that you pay your bills. it may also lend some weight to the fact that your wife doesnt recall signing anything else or being aware that she would have owed anyone else anything. in the end, it is your job to put the burden of proof back onto the plaintiff--the accuser is required by law to prove their case. it isnt up to you to prove your innocence, even though working towards that end wouldnt hurt your case. just remember that you want to see a signed promise to pay with your wife's handwriting on it. you can also go to the hospital itself, and see if you can find out if that is their customary practice to get patients to sign that disclaimer. if you can show that it is their practice to do so, and the plaintiff cannot produce one, it will damage their case against you.

Thank you Skydivr!

Received the Bill of Particulars today although they are dated the 6th and stated to be mailed on the 18th...

Ok, heres what it says.

1. Plaintiff is a corporation authorized to do business in Virginia.
2. (My wifes name ) received care and treatment as a patient at Plaintiff's medical facility on the dates (blah) (blah).
3. Defendants were lawfully married, and not permanently living apart, at the time services were rendered.
4. The charges incurred for said care and treatment of (wife's name ) totaled 6,445.70 as evidenced in exhibit A hereto. Said amount is reasonable for the services rendered.
5. Pursuant to the Doctrine of Necessaries and other applicable Virginia Law, (ME) is responsible for the costs of the services provided to his spouse, (my wife's name).
6. After giving the Defendant all credits entitled thereto, the amount of 5,420.16 remains due and owing from the defendants.

WHEREFORE, Plaintiff prays for judgement against the Defendants, (my wife and me ), jointly and severally, in the amount of 5,420.16, plus interest from the original return date, costs and for other general relief as the court deems fit and proper.

Sorry, stated to be mailed on the 8th...

Anyway, I have to answer this with my Grounds of Defense within 10 days.

I am not sure that the Doctrine of Necessities applies. My wife had a bladder infection spread to her kidney and was pregnant. Not exactly life threatening to her. A lawyer told me it was borderline. Secondly the exhibit A is a computer printout that is very vague of the charges and is almost 1 thousand dollars more than they are suing. They also state they gave a credit entitled thereto but what are they talking about? The credit is not showed anywhere, the computer print off says 6 thousand not 5. I have not made any payments....The last but damning of all is that I sent a validation letter within the 30 days of dispute WITH certified return receipt and they never responded.

So any ideas of what to say or how...Never done this before.

Thanks for all your help.

Do you guys think I can use this letter in court as one of my defenses to this computer print off bill?

http://www.cardreport.com/laws/fdcpa/ftc-opinion/wollman.html

Or any other official opinions or letters I can use.

Oh and here is a link to the FTC site where that letter and others are located.

http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/fdcpa/letters.shtm

The letter I want to admit into court is under Wollman in section:
Section 809(b) [1692g(b)]
Validation of the debt

Corrie, you may have to email skydivr to help you again.

Thank you, I messaged him. :)

hi corriewf--

ok, some questions first.

1--do you still have the green USPS receipt card proving that they received your letter?

2--do you still have a copy of the letter itself that you sent to them, requesting validation of the debt?

3--was that the actual amount of the bill for service, or do you even know at this point?

Alright, according to the FTC, sending you a computer printout that they produced "in-house" is NOT validation and thats the stance i would take when you answer their bill of particulars. however, in order for that to have the full effect it would greatly help if you still had a copy of the letter and the green USPS card to back you up.

I may have missed this--what is the name of the CA youre dealing with on this? we can check to make sure that they are in fact authorized to do business in VA or not.

As for their particulars, I would focus more on the fact that they sued while ignoring a timely DV request. I found in your state's laws a statute that says the following:



On one hand, it states that a person cannot be held liable for any obligation that belongs to their spouse, regardless of it the obligation occurred before or after they got married. But, it then goes on to say that the doctrine of necessaries applies equally to both husband and wife. you see, your state got rid of the old doctrine and replaced it with an "equal rights" version. It used to be that the doctrine targeted only the husband as the one responsible for supporting his wife, it never would put the wife into obligation for the husband's debts. That is all that changed in VA--equal treatment for men and women.

Remember to get back to us with the name of that CA and we can see what they are all about too....but thats where i would focus. From a point of federal law, a lawsuit is collection effort, and no collection effort is legal if they ignored a DV request and then began that effort. the only way they could have legally done this is if you sent them the DV request after they had already filed the lawsuit against you, which did not happen.

1. Yes, I do have the receipt. :)

2. I have the letter and a copy saved to my computer. I used the template located on this website. So the wording is almost identical.

3. They always quoted me 5k+ bal, never heard of the credit OR the 6k bal until this computer printout. They fail to show what credit they are applying. I know no payment has been made. Not that I wouldn't be happy to take the credit if in fact this debt is valid.


The lawyer that was hired to collect for the hospital was Cawthorn, Picard & Rowe PC. The plaintiff is the hospital in this suit with Cawthorn as the attorney. The DV letter was sent to Cawthorn, Picard & Rowe PC.

From what I understand the doctrine of necessities only applies to medical bills IF the spouse is being treated for life threatening occurrences. I guess I need to firm that up huh?

Also I can't tell if this is a print out from Picard or the Hospital but it is VERY vague as to services rendered and has no signature from my wife or me agreeing to pay. I asked for that in my DV.

Also do you know if those FTC letters are admissible?

She was admitted via the women's pavilion, not by ER. She needed antibiotics and an iv for a kidney infection as was admitted by her doctor and cared for by her doctor, whom was paid in full.

right, but according to that statute, they have you. read the definition of 'emergency care' as they state it in that law:



she had a kidney infection, youre saying--but that could easily fit the description given in that law. if left untreated, such an infection can lead to blood poisoning, the kidney could be damaged or lost entirely, and you can even die from this. So, when it comes to "emegency", it wont matter that she was not admitted through the ER. what you described fits the law's definition in your state.

Also, I was not previously aware that this was the original creditor suing you, as you mentioned that they "claimed to be a CA". in this particular case, the hospital is the listed plaintiff, correct? If so, then the fdcpa does not apply at all. The attorney would only be acting as a debt collector in this lawsuit if they were the ones suing you instead of the hospital doing it. Their role here is as the plaintiff's attorney in a lawsuit. They sent you a demand for payment, and then when payment was not received, they reported back to the hospital. The hospital then made the decision to sue you. The FDCPA only applies to third-party collectors, and not to original creditors. So, at that point, I dont think you would have any success arguing that they sued you without responding to your DV request either, sorry to say.

So what your saying is that the FDCPA does not count even though the Lawyers representing the client sent a debt verification per the fdcpa? Basically the original creditor can contract the services of a collector and then when the collector can't validate then use the collector to sue? That sounds foul! So the original creditor doesn't have to send debt verification? Also, they have not provided a signed agreement from my wife or me agreeing to pay this amount.

To me if the lawyer was hired as a collector and then used as the client attorney for suit, that would be a conflict of interest. Also, it seems like misrepresentation of who is collecting the debt.

I know that in the past collection attempts by their lawyer, they wanted the payments payable to them, not the hospital.

well, think of it like this....

The FDCPA binds the attorney, when acting to collect a debt, to respond to a DV request before taking any further collection action against you. But here's the thing--the attorney is not the one who is suing you....the hospital is. So, the lawsuit being filed does not constitute any further activity on the part of the attorney--the hospital is the plaintiff.

Attorney debt collectors have unique ability in that they can attempt to collect and then also represent the plaintiff as in this case. In some states, attorneys who also act as debt collectors do not need to be licensed as debt collectors when a regular collection agency would have to be.

The only time you would have any FDCPA case here is if the attorney, while acting as the debt collector, violated the law themselves. in such a case, you have the right to sue them for those violations. But there was no violation when it comes to the validation. If they misrepresented anything, you could have a case there. for example, if they said that they purchased the debt and now owned it, that would be deception.

Well, there is still the question on the computer print out of 6K owed and the suite of 5k owed. The itemization is poor in my opinion. It does not get very specific at all as to what services were rendered. I could make a print off like this in 5 minutes. The print off does not have a copy of any signature from my wife or me. Are these legs to stand on? I have to send in a defense by Friday.. I am kind of stuck now. As attorneys for the hospital, receiving my request for validation, would that not make them aware of my request for certain proofs of this debt? Regardless of FDCPA, this does show proof of my dispute of said debt.

Anyway, im not sure if I owe this money at least to the amount of what they are claiming. We are talking about 6k for 3 days with antibiotics and care was administered by her pcp while she was there. He had a decent sized bill that was paid.

It just would of been nice to very a clear and concise bill from the hospital to begin with and I would be able to make payment arrangements.

i just recently found out on yesterday that my son's grandmother told me that i was supposed to be in court on this last Tuesday concerning, i would guess child support. It was my understanding that the mother had dropped the process from dcse.She also told me that i was charged with contemp of court. My question is, can you be held in contemp for not showing up for court when you were never served a summons.